Students required to use fuel truck?

MikeD said:
Why are you complaining? The flight school is simply providing free training to students for their first post-ratings job in the aviation world....




:)
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Totally agree, this is the reality of the aviation industry. Get ready for it.
 
I don't see the problem of it really. Like Hacker said, these are the same dudes taxiing and flying an airplane around, if you're concerned about whether they're going to hit something than maybe they shouldn't be operating an airplane around. There are ways to mitigate the liability of driving a fuel truck around. No offense to any line guys on here, but I've seen some paid (non-pilot) fuel truck drivers really mess things up. The flight school I grew up around was good to me... I didn't always have the money upfront to fly, they floated me 'loans' ("just go fly and pay us when ever you get it") here and there while I'd finish up a certificate, rating, or long cross country. In turn I'd help fuel airplanes up, ferry them to mx shops, help change tires, etc.

Driving a fuel truck around would be a small price to pay if the FBO was good to its customers, kept reasonable rates, and didn't nickel and dime the pilots to death.
 
I haven't seen the truck yet, so i'm not sure how big it is, but we were briefed yesterday on how it works. We have to go through 5 fills with an instructor before we can fuel up on our own. If the truck runs low on fuel we have to fill it back up, primarily because if they need to get the choppers in the air quickly they need everything in place. Ideally I guess there could be a "fuel person", but this is a small airport and a small operation, so I don't see this happening, at least anytime soon. Personally I rather pull a truck up to the helicopter rather than pulling the helicopter up to fuel tanks. I'm sure there is some liability if you were to pull up too close to the helicopter and damage the rotor or open the door and bang it into the side of the helicopter. As MikeD stated I may need this training for future job security...one more thing for my resume!
 
That's crazy. There is no way I'm fueling up the plane myself if I'm paying a wet rate unless the rates are cheaper then the market value. The FBO I use even notices when I'm driving up in the parking lot and will move the plane 100 feet closer and wipe down the windshield but then again they don't go easy on me when it's time to pay.
 
I don't see anything wrong with it. It would be a good learning experience for a student pilot. It also would demonstrate a willing and eager team member that is willing to pitch in when necessary.

The fuel truck was a mystery to me for many years because I was never taught this "skill" until many years into this avocation when the fuel tank at the FBO that I was training at had a leak and could not be used. So the only way to fill the plane was to drive the fuel truck up to it. When I was taught, it did allow me to have the knowledge to know if the lineman fueling my plane was doing it properly and doing it safely.

There are many airports now with self service fuel tanks. I try to take advantage of those self service fuel tanks, when I can and when they are available, because we tend to use a lot of fuel and it saves my company money. My company does not require that we use self service, I just do it because it is something that I can do. The training that I had with the fuel truck lets me have the confidence to know that I am fueling the plane properly.

But, with that being said, if you don't want to participate this this type of learning activity, then you should not be forced too and you should find another school that does not force it on you.

Joe
 
I dont have a problem with the students fueling planes with the trucks. But topping off the trucks is another story. Especially Avgas. I would like someone with some training to do that.
 
When working on my CFI I'd fuel planes. Got the best tan of my entire life (DAB), got to fly some pretty cool planes and meet interesting people. It's not rocket science, come on !
 
ryan1234 said:
I don't see the problem of it really. Like Hacker said, these are the same dudes taxiing and flying an airplane around, if you're concerned about whether they're going to hit something than maybe they shouldn't be operating an airplane around. There are ways to mitigate the liability of driving a fuel truck around.
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You guys that don't see a problem with this can't be serious! Just because you are a safe pilot does NOT mean ACCIDENTS don't happen.

Consider this senario as a business owner.

Senario: Student Pilot / Pilot rated Renter is at the fuel farm. Among any many potential outcomes the now uninsured "person" is filling the fuel truck up with 100LL as normal. But, this time the fuel truck overflows and spills Hundreds of gallons of toxic 100LL all over the containment area.

Who would be the cities target for the clean up bill? Would insurance help pay this cost? Will the city still let you operate under your permits?

Being too cheap to hire a trained employee could potential put you out of business.

I'm not saying this wouldn't be a cool learning experience. Or that it isn't easy. But maybe you should go get paid by an FBO to do this. The fuel truck driving thing would be a stretch but maybe OK. But not the fuel farm filling.
 
Krieger said:
I'm not saying this wouldn't be a cool learning experience. Or that it isn't easy. But maybe you should go get paid by an FBO to do this. The fuel truck driving thing would be a stretch but maybe OK. But not the fuel farm filling.
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Exactly. There is a lot more to filling up a truck than just hooking up a hose filling it.
 
Krieger said:
You guys that don't see a problem with this can't be serious! Just because you are a safe pilot does NOT mean ACCIDENTS don't happen.

Consider this senario as a business owner.

Senario: Student Pilot / Pilot rated Renter is at the fuel farm. Among any many potential outcomes the now uninsured "person" is filling the fuel truck up with 100LL as normal. But, this time the fuel truck overflows and spills Hundreds of gallons of toxic 100LL all over the containment area.

Who would be the cities target for the clean up bill? Would insurance help pay this cost? Will the city still let you operate under your permits?

Being too cheap to hire a trained employee could potential put you out of business.

I'm not saying this wouldn't be a cool learning experience. Or that it isn't easy. But maybe you should go get paid by an FBO to do this. The fuel truck driving thing would be a stretch but maybe OK. But not the fuel farm filling.
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When did this become a discussion on if it was a smart business decision, or what risks the business owner bears with a setup like this?

The OP asked from the perspective of the student pilot...and I still don't see a problem with it.

FWIW "fully trained" line personnel make huge mistakes at the fuel farm, too...and the company has the same responsibility either way and will pay the cleanup or fines the same way.

I paid my way through college as a line service guy, and it's just not that complicated to do fueling on anything short of an actual airliner. About as tough as it gets is remembering to alternate sides when fuelling a Lear so that the tips don't kiss the pavement.

Going to the fuel farm consisted of hooking up the hose, testing the top-off valve, and then noting the numbers at the beginning and end of the top off. Let's not make it into something any more difficult or dangerous than it is.

It's certainly less academically, technically, and manually difficult than learning to safely fly an airplane around.
 
Hacker15e said:
When did this become a discussion on if it was a smart business decision, or what risks the business owner bears with a setup like this?

The OP asked from the perspective of the student pilot...and I still don't see a problem with it.

FWIW "fully trained" line personnel make huge mistakes at the fuel farm, too...and the company has the same responsibility either way and will pay the cleanup or fines the same way.

I paid my way through college as a line service guy, and it's just not that complicated to do fueling on anything short of an actual airliner. About as tough as it gets is remembering to alternate sides when fuelling a Lear so that the tips don't kiss the pavement.

Going to the fuel farm consisted of hooking up the hose, testing the top-off valve, and then noting the numbers at the beginning and end of the top off. Let's not make it into something any more difficult or dangerous than it is.

It's certainly less academically, technically, and manually difficult than learning to safely fly an airplane around.
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All good points.

This whole thing can be done smartly. Show the student how to clean up a spill, and a few things to watch out for.
 
To add a little more background to the scenario, the school is a college flight program and so the student's are all full time students. It is not an FBO where the weekend warrior is operating the fuel truck. I personally feel this is a service that the school should provide and it is outside the scope of what a student pilot should be doing. What's next, will they have to go change the oil when the 50 hours comes up?
 
subpilot said:
To add a little more background to the scenario, the school is a college flight program and so the student's are all full time students. It is not an FBO where the weekend warrior is operating the fuel truck. I personally feel this is a service that the school should provide and it is outside the scope of what a student pilot should be doing. What's next, will they have to go change the oil when the 50 hours comes up?
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Is there a commesurate value received in the overall pricing structure?

If I'm guessing correctly you are talking about one of the most economical programs in the country, yes? If so, I'm sure that the student(s) could well choose to spend more in tuition and get the gas pumped and the windshield cleaned and fly better looking equipment somewhere else?
 
No idea on how economical the program is. I believe the overall cost is apprx $75k. The hourly rates when broken down seem average to anywhere else.
 
subpilot said:
I personally feel this is a service that the school should provide and it is outside the scope of what a student pilot should be doing. What's next, will they have to go change the oil when the 50 hours comes up?
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That's what this ultimately comes down to -- people don't "feel" that it "should" be something a pilot has to do.

To which I say, bollocks. If people don't like the arrangement, then they can go elsewhere, but there's certainly nothing wrong with this particular way of doing business, and I personally think it actually benefits the student. In the same way that I think that most people should be capable of performing user-level maintenance on their personal cars (change oil, filters, wiper blades, lights, etc).
 
SteveC said:
Is there a commesurate value received in the overall pricing structure?
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That's the important question.

Many flying clubs have their members fuel the planes to keep costs down. I see nothing wrong with a college having them do the same thing. As many others have said it is something that a pilot NEEDS to know how to do.

Now what the insurance company has to say about it, I have no idea.
 
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