Student Xwind Limitation

bc2209

bc2209

Well-Known Member
What is your honest opinion on what at students cross-wind limitation should be for their first or second solo flights?

I understand that each student is a little different in regards to ability.

However, since this is my first time having students i'm curious.

My student is fairly competent at his stick and rudder skills. I put a cross-wind limitation of 8kts in his logbook.

Today the flight was delayed because the xwind was at 9kts. He then asked me later if I could "up" his limitation. I said no.

Just curious as to what is the "norm" for a xwind limitation?
 
It may or may not be...

Theres a big difference between an 8kt cross wind component with a 10kt head wind and an 8kt direct crosswind varying slightly head to tail....

Crosswinds over 30 degrees off runway center were kind of rare in our area. It depends a lot on the student's aptitude and conditions they learn in as well as the airplane. Tricycle vs Tailwheel... There's even a big difference between a Cub and a Citabira in the wind. Mechanical turbulence also needs to be considered. 20 kts of smooth, steady wind is nothing compared to 10 kts of turbulent or descending air caused by hangars, a tree line or rising/falling terrain close to the approach end of the runway.

I'd usually limit them to 15kts max wind. Since anything higher than that was abnormal for the area (unless they were learning in Santa Ana conditions). Then if the cross wind went beyond 45 degrees then reduce the max wind number by 25% for every 20 degrees beyond 45.
 
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If you're uncomfortable with giving your student more than 8kt crosswind then that is what it is. However, if he wants to "up it", then tell him you'll need to do another dual flight in higher wind conditions and watch him safely land. I wouldn't give my solo student anything more than what I had witnessed him handle.
 
Depends entirely on the xwind experience he/she had during the training leading to solo.
Could be as little as 5-8 kts or as as much as much 10-12, or none.
What is your comfort level based on the actual experience ?
 
Yeah it was my first student ever that I signed off to solo. Add to it that when flying with him he's hardly experienced any crosswind. Add that to he's straight outta China.

So with all of that combined I was a tad hesitant to put 8 knots of xwind.

He asked for an increase because he wanted to fly that day (gusty day) and I told him that I would not be changing it until we fly again. And then we will see.

In my opinion he is too new and too inexperienced with landings, especially cross wind landings, to have anything more.

In a couple days I will sign him off for his cross countries. Yay.

I really thought that trying to teach someone to land was the scariest part. Come to find out that sitting on the ground watching them solo for the first time is far more terrifying. Competent student or not.

He actually did great on his first. Thank baby jesus.
 
My hard and fast rule for first solo was 5kts. Second solo and on I would give out limitations from 10kts to 25kts depending on the xwind experience they had had up to that point and how well they could handle it.

I only changed that first solo rule once, and that was because we had 2 straight weeks of wind, so I took the student up and he showed me 5 great landings with 9kts, I signed him off for 10 and we moved on.

I would never let a student talk you into "just one more knot" etc. You put the limitations that you were comfortable with in his logbook, stick with it. I have had students try to do that several times.
 
Is it worth doing x wind practice in the sim as a substitute?

I'm aware that crosswinds don't come along that often, and no two are exactly the same, so while flying it would be ideal, the sim should help maintain the muscle memory?
 
nosehair said:
Depends entirely on the xwind experience he/she had during the training leading to solo.
Could be as little as 5-8 kts or as as much as much 10-12, or none.
What is your comfort level based on the actual experience ?
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That is so completely accurate. There are parts of the country and seasons of the year where the prevailing winds are right down the runway 90% of the time and the crosswind component is small or nonexistent. Then there are parts of the country and times of year where one can expect substantial crosswinds at least at some point every day.
 
ahw01 said:
Is it worth doing x wind practice in the sim as a substitute?

I'm aware that crosswinds don't come along that often, and no two are exactly the same, so while flying it would be ideal, the sim should help maintain the muscle memory?
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Depends on the sim. Are you talking about a full motion or at least one of those with wrap-around visual screens that give the visual cues of full motion? Maybe useful. If not, it may be my lack of imagination, but I just don't see it doing anything to teach the muscle memory of "do whatever it needs to stop the drift and maintain alignment."
 
I've had the student who always asks to push the limits you set forth. After teaching for the last 13 years my method for setting limits is:

Talk about their limits prior to solo
Talk about how students who ask to push limits are the ones who concern you because of their lack of respect for risk in the airplane
Talk about if we train in cross winds of -- knots, then that's typically going to be your limit during solo.

At my home airport of Sna, it's typically a 4-6 knots cross wind so I set a 7 knot limit. I've seen so many students get a light 11 knot cross wind on occasional days and end up almost going off the side of the runway.

I do like to take my guys up during Santa Ana wind conditions to show them what that can be like.
 
A large amout of crosswind technique is purely hand-eye-foot coordination and timing. If you're not spending enough time teaching your student to smonthly enter and recover from slips, then your student will struggle more than necessary with controlling the airplane in a cross wind.

Either they are making the correct control inputs or they aren't. Downwind rudder and aileron into the wind. That's it. Once they make the corrective inputs, are they holding them, letting aileron or rudder go, or continuing to fly the airplane form the control displacement of the corrective inputs? Lateral drift or longitudinal alignment will tell you this. Do they fully understand that the rudder points the nose left or right and the ailerons level the wings and control the lateral drift? When students get uncomfortable, they often revert back to "driving" or "steering" the airplane with the yoke. Where are they looking? They need a runway edge or centerline for a longitudinal reference. If they are not to the point where they are looking over the nose down the runway for a normal landing, they will never competent in a crosswind.

They won't get better if they don't practice, so make your own crosswind...For regions with little or no crosswinds, one way to fine tune crosswind mechanics is to perform a forward slip on final into ground effect. Before touchdown, kick the airplane straight while leveling the wings and maintain the runway center or edge line. They still have to make smooth, coordinated control inputs to staighten the plane out. Just like they would in a crosswind.
 
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Only two things to add.
As written earlier the part of the country where you teach is a factor. Add to this the "out" available for the student. When I taught in New Mexico the primary airport had a single runway and often had a stiff cross wind. We did, however, have one of the old triangle layout airports nearby where you were about guaranteed having a runway aligned with the wind. Part of my presolo training for students was teaching them to find this airport, figure the best runway and land.
Second point that I often see overlooked by new CFIs is that a student MUST demonstrate proficiency in crosswind takeoffs and landings prior to solo. Also this training MUST be documented orbit did not happen.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
For regions with little or no crosswinds, one way to fine tune crosswind mechanics is to perform a forward slip on final into ground effect. Before touchdown, kick the airplane straight while leveling the wings and maintain the runway center or edge line. They still have to make smooth, coordinated control inputs to staighten the plane out. Just like they would in a crosswind.
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Why not take it that last step and have them control a rollout on one wheel? Keep the aileron input in until the speed bleeds down enough that they are no longer able to keep that wing down and the plane settles on it's other main all on it's own.
 
shdw said:
Why not take it that last step and have them control a rollout on one wheel? Keep the aileron input in until the speed bleeds down enough that they are no longer able to keep that wing down and the plane settles on it's other main all on it's own.
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That works too! It's was an easier exercise to teach in a Tailwheel since sometimes it would just happen with pilots learning to do wheel landings. The energy is already there, so no modification to the approach is necessary. It's more difficult to pull off in a tricycle since by the time you get to the correct attitude to touch down main(s) first, there isn't much energy left. Most student pilots control inputs aren't refined enough yet to stick it on one main with the time available. You could use less flap or approach a little higher/faster but then you're altering the approach to suit the landing. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. The instructor just needs to make sure the student understands why the approach is being done a certain way and what the exercise is all about. If the student actually starts to understand energy management then that's an added bonus. This early in the game they're usually just starting to loosely grasp pitch and power.
 
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