Student with passengers

drunkenbeagle said:
As long as the time isn't being used to satisfy the requirements of 61.109(a)(3), it would be irrelevant. It reasonably could be used for other purposes. Up to the recommending instructor / DPE to determine if that is the case or not.
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That's what I'm trying to get across is that Sam IS logging solo every time he flies with Joe. Now Joe wants me to fly with Sam so he (Sam) can log more solo time. This is part of the fraud to which I do not want to be a part.
drunkenbeagle said:
For the purposes of 61.129(a)(4) for commercial solo experience, an Authorized Instructor can be in the aircraft during the required solo time, while the student is performing the duties of PIC.

Perhaps the 350 mile solo endorsement was meant to satisfy the commercial aeronautical experience / 300 mile solo? (There is no prohibition on a CFI being present for that, and as the CFI is not giving instruction either, reasonable that the endorsement would be necessary in that case).
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Well, first of all he hasn't been "solo" but I'm sure it was logged that way. The 350nm endorsement was to allow him to go to family owned property in another State. Not stating that it won't be used to satisfy the Comm aspect but was really not the purpose. PLUS it's a 90 day endorsement which is not correct as has been mentioned above.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
As long as the time isn't being used to satisfy the requirements of 61.109(a)(3), it would be irrelevant. It reasonably could be used for other purposes. Up to the recommending instructor / DPE to determine if that is the case or not.
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In the scenario dustoff presented, I'm having a real hard time seeing how the flight time could be used to satisfy any requirement of part 61.
Let's start out by saying what it isn't. It is not solo. It isn't PIC. It isn't "dual received", instruction received, or training by an authorized instructor. It isn't safety pilot or SIC. It's not pilot time, he is a passenger manipulating the controls
 
drunkenbeagle said:
For the purposes of 61.129(a)(4) for commercial solo experience, an Authorized Instructor can be in the aircraft during the required solo time, while the student is performing the duties of PIC.
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Except neither of the folks in the other seat is an authorized instructor in this case.

This time IS NOT:
1) dual received -- no CFI
2) flight time (1.1) -- he's a passenger, not a pilot
3) flight training (61.109a) or training time (61.51h) -- ref #1
3) solo -- he's not alone, and not in an airship (61.51d)
4) pilot in command -- not the final authority (1.1), not the sole occupant (61.51e1iii)

This situation IS:
1) compete BS.

@dustoff17 -- he shouldn't put you in such a position.
 
dustoff17 said:
@USMCmech, I agree with you and have resisted this situation since he turned 16. ONE of my issues is that he IS logging all his time as "solo". While Joe is correct in that HOW Sam logs the time is between him and the FAA, I have a moral issue with being party to the fraud!
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If you think that they will listen to you, I would sit down with Joe and Sam and lay all of this out. Tell him that they have recieved some incorrect advice from someone who most likely doesn't know any better. If Joe honestly doesn't trust Sam to fly solo, then Sam probably shouldn't be flying at this time.

As loath as I usually am to call the FSDO about anything, in this case the DPE needs to be reported as he is spreading incorrect and possibly dangerous information that is the eyes of the public is coming from a representative of the FAA.
 
A little late to the party, but curious how this is working out now that it has been a month.

Last time I heard a story like the this the sole manipulator wasn't even rated, the other occupant of a seat with flight controls wasn't current and the only rated and current pilot aboard was in the back seat.
 
dustoff17 said:
You are affirming my thoughts/knowledge of this. I knew I could instruct as an ATP but, in this case, NOT while in his 182. When I told Sam that Joe would not be able to log flight time if I were with him, Sam said, "Why do you care about what or how he logs the flights, that's between him and the FAA."

P.S. So, if I would happen to fly in the right seat (I'm seriously trying to avoid this if you haven't picked up on it), I'm the PC but if he is the "sole manipulator" he could log it, correct?
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Let's go back to Logging 101. Much of this is a repeat. All of it is in the Universal Rule of Logging Flight Time (FAR 61.51). I'll let you do the looking up.

  • A student pilot may only log one of two things - (1) instruction received; (2) solo (also logged as PIC). Period. No ifs, ands, buts or exceptions.
  • In order to log instruction received, there must be a CFI on board giving instruction. An ATP does not count - ATPs may only instruct in "air transportation". That means as an instructor in a Part 135 or 121 operator's flight training program for their employees and candidates.
  • In order to log solo time, a student pilot must be all alone in the cockpit. Yeah, you can play around with the "substitute solo" language for certain advanced certificates and ratings, but (a) it is not logged as solo and I doubt if that would "fly" with the FAA even at a future date given its penchant for interpreting things done at the student level as not applying to more advanced certificates and ratings.
  • In order to log PIC as the "sole manipulator" one must be a "sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot". Student pilots are not listed

"Why do you care about what or how he logs the flights, that's between him and the FAA."

I'm not a big fan of the FAA-created "anti-authority dangerous attitude," but intentional logbook falsification does not strike me as the best way to begin an aviation career or avocation.
 
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dustoff17 said:
QUESTION (whew!):
Is it legal for Joe to fly with ATP certificate holder that is not also a CFI?
If so, is it legal for a passenger to be on board these flights?
Reference(s)?
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The specific questions:
Yes to both. Assuming applicable currency and other basic PIC qualifications, the PIC of a part 91 flight (in this case, the ATP, but it could as easily be a private pilot) can let anyone handle the controls and can carry as many passengers as the airplane will hold.
 
dustoff17 said:
I am not a civilian instructor and am requesting help from the CFI group here:

BACKGROUND:
I work for a guy (I'll call him Sam) who has a son (I'll call him Joe) that is flight training. Sam is not a CFI but has an ATP, and owns several airplanes, including the one he bought for Joe.

Joe just turned 16 (soloed on his birthday) and is now working on logging time. Joe has flown about 30-40hrs "solo" so far but, with the exception of his first solo flight, has yet to actually BE alone in the airplane. Sam always goes with Joe because he's worried Joe might crash without his constant help. On several occasions, Joe has flown with Sam in the right seat and a non-pilot passenger in the back. As far as the actual flight routing, it seems valid as Joe's instructor (a DPE) gave him a 350nm cross-country endorsement so he would be able to travel to some family property in another State.

Sam wants me to fly with Joe to "help him out" but he's said that it's more about the fact that he doesn't want Joe to fly alone. I am willing to fly with Joe, and willing to let him be "sole manipulator" as long as I'm in the left seat. Joe wants none of this as it is HIS airplane. Sam is insistent that I fly with Joe while sitting in the right seat

I'm resistant to this because I don't want to risk my certificate. The DPE tells Sam that it is perfectly legal for him OR me to fly with Joe because we have our ATP certificate(s). The DPE says that Sam can log it as instruction time (with our endorsement) or, "better yet, as "solo"" in order to build it up.

QUESTION (whew!):
Is it legal for Joe to fly with ATP certificate holder that is not also a CFI?
If so, is it legal for a passenger to be on board these flights?
Reference(s)?

Thank you all for your help, I've researched but can't find a reference for THIS!
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1. A student pilot endorsed for Solo privileges MAY NOT have a passenger on board.
2. You are an ATP certificated pilot.
3. You are (if I understand correctly) NOT a CFI.
4. Therefore, if you are on board the aircraft with the student, the student is neither a student, NOR a solo pilot. He is a passenger, who may likely pick up some good tidbits about flying from you since you have lots of experience; But, he is a passenger... that's it.
5. Therefore, legally, the student may log neither SOLO time, nor DUAL RCV'D time, no matter what cock and bull story the father or "DPE" is telling you.
6. No, it doesn't matter what he logs. Technically, that is between him and the FAA. But if the FAA found out that you possessed knowledge of an untoward and/or illegal activity and did nothing to stop it or report it, they could accuse you of aiding and abetting, or moral turpitude, or, I suspect, any number of other violations I can't think of right now. So, yeah, it's a murky road... potentially. Then again, maybe nothing at all will come of it. Your gamble.
7. I'm not going to advise you. But I'm pretty sure you understand what my advice might be if I did, hmmm?
 
Regardless of who is legal to do what, if it doesn't sit well with you or seem right, distance yourself from it. Aviation is full of weighty issues and you should be commended for seeking the advice of experts here. That being said, trust your instincts on this one.
 
Are you able to fly from the right seat well in the aircraft? I'd take him anytime to let him build up his confidences as much as he would like as if he was my son. If you are enemies with your boss then that is a different scenario. Treat others as you would want them to treat you. You have no idea what is going in his log book and dad is right in a sense. You do not see it and there is no reason for you to see it really. He is very young and being behind an aircraft before behind the wheel of a car is something to consider about his confidence levels. Just be generous and careful of his abilities. You also have to be aware of your abilities as well. It's not as big of an issue as you making it out to be in my opinion. I just hope dad is not forcing him to do this and he actually enjoys flying. It is not you braking any rules if any are being broken.
 
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