Student with passengers

dustoff17

dustoff17

Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
I am not a civilian instructor and am requesting help from the CFI group here:

BACKGROUND:
I work for a guy (I'll call him Sam) who has a son (I'll call him Joe) that is flight training. Sam is not a CFI but has an ATP, and owns several airplanes, including the one he bought for Joe.

Joe just turned 16 (soloed on his birthday) and is now working on logging time. Joe has flown about 30-40hrs "solo" so far but, with the exception of his first solo flight, has yet to actually BE alone in the airplane. Sam always goes with Joe because he's worried Joe might crash without his constant help. On several occasions, Joe has flown with Sam in the right seat and a non-pilot passenger in the back. As far as the actual flight routing, it seems valid as Joe's instructor (a DPE) gave him a 350nm cross-country endorsement so he would be able to travel to some family property in another State.

Sam wants me to fly with Joe to "help him out" but he's said that it's more about the fact that he doesn't want Joe to fly alone. I am willing to fly with Joe, and willing to let him be "sole manipulator" as long as I'm in the left seat. Joe wants none of this as it is HIS airplane. Sam is insistent that I fly with Joe while sitting in the right seat

I'm resistant to this because I don't want to risk my certificate. The DPE tells Sam that it is perfectly legal for him OR me to fly with Joe because we have our ATP certificate(s). The DPE says that Sam can log it as instruction time (with our endorsement) or, "better yet, as "solo"" in order to build it up.

QUESTION (whew!):
Is it legal for Joe to fly with ATP certificate holder that is not also a CFI?
If so, is it legal for a passenger to be on board these flights?
Reference(s)?

Thank you all for your help, I've researched but can't find a reference for THIS!
 
dustoff17 said:
I am not a civilian instructor and am requesting help from the CFI group here:

BACKGROUND:
I work for a guy (I'll call him Sam) who has a son (I'll call him Joe) that is flight training. Sam is not a CFI but has an ATP, and owns several airplanes, including the one he bought for Joe.

Joe just turned 16 (soloed on his birthday) and is now working on logging time. Joe has flown about 30-40hrs "solo" so far but, with the exception of his first solo flight, has yet to actually BE alone in the airplane. Sam always goes with Joe because he's worried Joe might crash without his constant help. On several occasions, Joe has flown with Sam in the right seat and a non-pilot passenger in the back. As far as the actual flight routing, it seems valid as Joe's instructor (a DPE) gave him a 350nm cross-country endorsement so he would be able to travel to some family property in another State.

Sam wants me to fly with Joe to "help him out" but he's said that it's more about the fact that he doesn't want Joe to fly alone. I am willing to fly with Joe, and willing to let him be "sole manipulator" as long as I'm in the left seat. Joe wants none of this as it is HIS airplane. Sam is insistent that I fly with Joe while sitting in the right seat

I'm resistant to this because I don't want to risk my certificate. The DPE tells Sam that it is perfectly legal for him OR me to fly with Joe because we have our ATP certificate(s). The DPE says that Sam can log it as instruction time (with our endorsement) or, "better yet, as "solo"" in order to build it up.

QUESTION (whew!):
Is it legal for Joe to fly with ATP certificate holder that is not also a CFI?
If so, is it legal for a passenger to be on board these flights?
Reference(s)?

Thank you all for your help, I've researched but can't find a reference for THIS!
Click to expand...

1. Yes, if the ATP rated pilot is the pilot in command and if the student pilot isn't logging time. No, if the student is logging time. The ATP can teach all they want - it just doesn't count for hours for the student..

61.167 - (2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 or §61.161, and the age requirements of §61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—

(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

2. Yes, if the ATP rated pilot is the pilot in command and if the student pilot isn't logging time. No, if the student is logging time.

§61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.
 
dustoff17 said:
I'm resistant to this because I don't want to risk my certificate. The DPE tells Sam that it is perfectly legal for him OR me to fly with Joe because we have our ATP certificate(s). The DPE says that Sam can log it as instruction time (with our endorsement) or, "better yet, as "solo"" in order to build it up.
Click to expand...

And unless there are some super secret regs I'm unaware of, the DPE is wronger than wrong. Scary wrong. If you end up flying with the guy, YOU are the PC no matter what seat you're in. You can't endorse a thing, and he shouldn't log anything, though that's not your problem if he does.
 
You are affirming my thoughts/knowledge of this. I knew I could instruct as an ATP but, in this case, NOT while in his 182. When I told Sam that Joe would not be able to log flight time if I were with him, Sam said, "Why do you care about what or how he logs the flights, that's between him and the FAA."

Thank you @MikeFavinger and @Mike Wise for the help.

P.S. So, if I would happen to fly in the right seat (I'm seriously trying to avoid this if you haven't picked up on it), I'm the PC but if he is the "sole manipulator" he could log it, correct?
 
dustoff17 said:
P.S. So, if I would happen to fly in the right seat (I'm seriously trying to avoid this if you haven't picked up on it), I'm the PC but if he is the "sole manipulator" he could log it, correct?
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter what seat you're sitting in, you would be the PIC. As long as you're in the airplane, regardless of where you're sitting, he cannot log it as solo time, even if he is the sole manipulator of the controls.

His father has a point though. You aren't endorsing his logbook. As far as what hours he writes in there, that's between him and the FAA. You have no legal requirement to audit what he writes.

Personally, I think it's a douchey move on the father to place you in that position, and to not have faith in his son to fly on his own. He shouldn't have let him start flight training if he doesn't think the kid is responsible enough to do it right. If you flat out refuse to do it, how serious would that jeopardize your employment?
 
dustoff17 said:
You are affirming my thoughts/knowledge of this. I knew I could instruct as an ATP but, in this case, NOT while in his 182. When I told Sam that Joe would not be able to log flight time if I were with him, Sam said, "Why do you care about what or how he logs the flights, that's between him and the FAA."

Thank you @MikeFavinger and @Mike Wise for the help.

P.S. So, if I would happen to fly in the right seat (I'm seriously trying to avoid this if you haven't picked up on it), I'm the PC but if he is the "sole manipulator" he could log it, correct?
Click to expand...

He cannot log "sole manipulator" because he isn't already rated. He's a student pilot. The only way he can log PIC is if he's solo. For real solo. And outside of that, the only way he can log time other than solo is if he's logging dual received with an authorized instructor.

And what Captain and Teneal said... Seat position doesn't matter.
 
JFK Jr all over again.

Everything here is spot on. If you or his father is onboard, he cannot LEGALLY log time (and that's between him and th Feds), and regardless of who's flying, you and the father are the PICs. If Jr bends the plane, he won't be in the hot seat.

The reference about an ATP is correct. Think of a checkairman. That ATP doesn't need a CFI and the training is IAW an approved air carrier program. Bubbas in a 182 need a CFI.
 
Thanks for the info.
I KNOW he can't log "solo" unless he actually is by himself. I'm battling the DPE that tells the boss that it's "legal for me to fly with him"....I see that the caveat is that I'm the PC....NO THANKS!

This IS a JFK Jr case in the sense that he won't get the decision making, self-confidence, and "oh sh... moments" needed to move up in aviation.

I'm tracking on the ATP instruction authority stuff. I'm trying to convince boss that my authority doesn't extend past the jet I'm flying and in no way conveys to a 182!

Thanks again.........
 
Legalities aside, I question the ethics of the whole thing. Sam is clearly looking for a loophole for his kid to log time instead of ensuring that he's got proper instruction, thus negating the issue.

You work for this guy?
 
killbilly said:
Legalities aside, I question the ethics of the whole thing. Sam is clearly looking for a loophole for his kid to log time instead of ensuring that he's got proper instruction, thus negating the issue.

You work for this guy?
Click to expand...
Exactly!
I do work for him but haven't seen this side of him until Joe started flying.
 
1. You can NOT instruct him as an ATP. Your ATP has the same privileges as a Private in this scenario..

2. Because of this, he is considered a Passenger when he is with you and can not log any time. There has been some debate on if you can even let him fly without you being a CFI but I will save that for a later discussion.

3. Im confused about the 350 mile endorsement... regardless he can not exercise it unless: a. he is solo, AND b. he is endorsed prior to every cross country by a CFI for that trip.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/creech - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
 
What is the end goal of this flight time building? To prepare him for a PPL practical or what? Is "Sam" just trying to get him there without any further CFI instruction? Seems weird and set up for failure, most likely during his check ride.
 
dustoff17 said:
@Fly Unity, his DPE gave him a 350 nm endorsement and told him it would be good for 90 days! The DPE has actually re-signed and endorsed for an additional 90 days since the first one. He's flown all over our tri-State area.
Click to expand...

The DPE is completely out of his mind and if I were in your shoes I would distance myself from this potential trainwreck as best I could.

An ATP can NOT give primary instruction outside of a 142 or 121 training program (unless he has a CFI and reverts to normal 61 or 141 training).

A "student pilot" can manipulate the controls with a PPL,CPL, or ATP acting as PIC, but they can't log any of it as dual given. This scenario is exactly the same as you flying with your wife and letting her fly the plane along during cruise.

If there is more than one warm body in the airplane, then neither a student nor an ATP can log the flight time as "solo"
 
@USMCmech, I agree with you and have resisted this situation since he turned 16. ONE of my issues is that he IS logging all his time as "solo". While Joe is correct in that HOW Sam logs the time is between him and the FAA, I have a moral issue with being party to the fraud!
 
USMCmech said:
If there is more than one warm body in the airplane, then neither a student nor an ATP can log the flight time as "solo"
Click to expand...

For the purposes of 61.129(a)(4) for commercial solo experience, an Authorized Instructor can be in the aircraft during the required solo time, while the student is performing the duties of PIC.

Perhaps the 350 mile solo endorsement was meant to satisfy the commercial aeronautical experience / 300 mile solo? (There is no prohibition on a CFI being present for that, and as the CFI is not giving instruction either, reasonable that the endorsement would be necessary in that case).
 
dustoff17 said:
@USMCmechWhile Joe is correct in that HOW Sam logs the time is between him and the FAA, I have a moral issue with being party to the fraud!
Click to expand...

As long as the time isn't being used to satisfy the requirements of 61.109(a)(3), it would be irrelevant. It reasonably could be used for other purposes. Up to the recommending instructor / DPE to determine if that is the case or not.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
For the purposes of 61.129(a)(4) for commercial solo experience, an Authorized Instructor can be in the aircraft during the required solo time, while the student is performing the duties of PIC.

Perhaps the 350 mile solo endorsement was meant to satisfy the commercial aeronautical experience / 300 mile solo? (There is no prohibition on a CFI being present for that, and as the CFI is not giving instruction either, reasonable that the endorsement would be necessary in that case).
Click to expand...
61.129 (a) 4 or 61.129 b (4) does not change what USMCmech said. 61.51 governs logging of pilot time, 61.129 does not. Either there is another living breathing human being in the aircraft or there is not. If there is, you may not log solo time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top