Student requesting CFI's advice

[bendisanto]

Hi all,

A previous post of mine discussed the problems I am having learning to land. I have 26 hours and have not done my solo yet because of the landing issues. I can't go on to other lessons until I solo ( Part 141) so it is costing me a fortune. Taking the advise of many, I went up yesterday with my schools Asst. Chief Flight Instructor to see if he can help. He tried his best but in hindsight we probably shouldn't of went up. The only objective of that flight was to work on my normal landings. As such the fact that there were cross winds at 10KT, gusting to 16 ( C-172) and the active runway was 3300' that I had only used once since January ( the runway we use most of the time is 5100') this eliminated the possibility of using more of the runway as some suggested because they had me doing touch and go's. I guess monday morning quarterbacking is easy to do. The landings were all the worst I have ever done as I have never worked on cross wind landings.

Is it permitted to hire a "free lance" cfi to work with me specifically on landings so it does not get entered into my lesson plan at my school. I do not want my current CFI getting in trouble because of all my "official" review flights. My thought is that I will work on my landings with someone else and return to my CFI when I am done. I want to be loyal to him as he has been very supportive and patient with me.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks:banghead:

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Hi all,

A previous post of mine discussed the problems I am having learning to land. I have 26 hours and have not done my solo yet because of the landing issues. I can't go on to other lessons until I solo ( Part 141) so it is costing me a fortune. Taking the advise of many, I went up yesterday with my schools Asst. Chief Flight Instructor to see if he can help. He tried his best but in hindsight we probably shouldn't of went up. The only objective of that flight was to work on my normal landings. As such the fact that there were cross winds at 10KT, gusting to 16 ( C-172) and the active runway was 3300' that I had only used once since January ( the runway we use most of the time is 5100') this eliminated the possibility of using more of the runway as some suggested because they had me doing touch and go's. I guess monday morning quarterbacking is easy to do. The landings were all the worst I have ever done as I have never worked on cross wind landings.

Is it permitted to hire a "free lance" cfi to work with me specifically on landings so it does not get entered into my lesson plan at my school. I do not want my current CFI getting in trouble because of all my "official" review flights. My thought is that I will work on my landings with someone else and return to my CFI when I am done. I want to be loyal to him as he has been very supportive and patient with me.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks:banghead:

I'd pack up and leave for another flightschool for an evaluation. If two instructors from the same gameshop fail to see where your problem is you may be better off in a different school. Maybe some other instructor can see, and gets you to click. If so, then it's a matter of their way of teaching not being very adjustable and not compatible with your way of learning. Not being able to move on from the landing part may increase your level of frustration. See if you can find some sort of independent experienced CFI to give you a evaluation ride. Someone in no relation to you, with little knowledge about your background should be able to tell if you have a system error (aptitude) or just hit a plateu (normal).

Good luck!

 

[tgrayson]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Is it permitted to hire a "free lance" cfi to work with me specifically on landings so it does not get entered into my lesson plan at my school. I do not want my current CFI getting in trouble

Sure you can, but I wouldn't worry about your CFI "getting into trouble" regarding your roadblock. That isn't likely to happen.

 

[GlenA]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

also, even if you are 141 at the school, there is no rule that says you can't get some extra help out of a flight club or something. All that counts is the time in the logbook, and wickets you have hit that are listed in the FARs.

 

[173comhome]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Don't worry about how many hours learning takes (other than the monatary implications of course), it took me 40 to solo.

 

[aeronaut]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Don't worry about how many hours learning takes (other than the monatary implications of course), it took me 40 to solo.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

We all learn differently. It's just something you have to accept.

 

[shdw]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

We all learn differently. It's just something you have to accept.

/agree

On your topic, first check your private messages I sent you my number if you would like to call and talk about/explain things more. To add to that, in my experience (only about 10 months as a CFI but I have a 141 education where I watched their management procedures) every single student that can't land that I have flown with hasn't learned some part of the basics.

At the college we had 3 times on one lesson before evaluation and instructor changes. If you were on the spot for more than 1.5 semesters (about 8-9 months) you were re-enrolled from the beginning and if you failed a stage check 3 times you were re-enrolled. Basically the idea is learning happens in a building block method for aviation and anything else in your life. You must have a thorough understanding of the aircraft and how to fly it, if you do landing is easy. Heck all a landing is is flying while close to the ground right?

Anyways I hope to hear from you and good luck either way.

~Brian

 

[Douglas]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Someone in no relation to you, with little knowledge about your background should be able to tell if you have a system error (aptitude) or just hit a plateu (normal).

Good luck!

Just checking but are you suggesting he finds a new school or just find a new instructor? The school has more than two instructors, probably.
26 hours is nothing.

The instructor will not be able to tell if it is a "plateau", in one evaluation ride. That is not how it works.

------
You shouldn't worry about your instructor getting into trouble; he won't.
Keep plugging away.
Also I don't know why you our anybody cares how many times you have to repeat a lesson. As long as it is a normal amount you shouldn't be worried. No employer is going to look back at your 141 syllabus or ask for a copy of it.
It is extremely normally to stall out on lesson 2-5 (in my schools syllabus) for what seems like a lot of hours.
You are still normal.

 

[bdhill1979]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

every single student that can't land that I have flown with hasn't learned some part of the basics.

:yeahthat:
It is almost without fail something basic that is missing.

Rather than attempting the same incorrect things over and over again (wasting your cash) ask your instructor, or an outside instructor to go through the basics with you again.

I find rudder control and slow flight to be the areas most commonly brushed over initially, that end up making landings difficult later on. Particularly when the student is working with a new CFI.

 

[tgrayson]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

every single student that can't land that I have flown with hasn't learned some part of the basics...It is almost without fail something basic that is missing.

Isn't that sort of true by definition? Like saying that people who can't land aren't doing the things that produce landings?

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Just checking but are you suggesting he finds a new school or just find a new instructor? The school has more than two instructors, probably. 26 hours is nothing.

Nope - not really suggesting a change in schools per se, but a few lessons out of the cage with someone new may help. Seems like a bit of relaxation and fun flying could help.

 

[bdhill1979]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

Isn't that sort of true by definition? Like saying that people who can't land aren't doing the things that produce landings?

wait, you have two people statements smashed together there.

of course its obvious.

But I have seen a lot of students (and instructors for that matter) that don't see the obvious, don't understand that the basics are the building blocks of more complex maneuvers, like landing; and as such don't seem to consider the brushing over of the basics as the problem causing a landing deficiency.
Then they waste a lot of time and money practicing and reinforcing flawed technique.

At the same time i have seen a few exceptions that were having difficulty with landing not because of basic deficiency, but they were afraid of the runway, or just had really bad hand eye coordination. Hence the "almost without fail" statement.

 

[tgrayson]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

wait, you have two people statements smashed together there.

I know, but you "yeah, that-ed" his statement, so it becomes yours.

 

[shdw]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

But I have seen a lot of students (and instructors for that matter) that don't see the obvious, don't understand that the basics are the building blocks of more complex maneuvers, like landing; and as such don't seem to consider the brushing over of the basics as the problem causing a landing deficiency.
Then they waste a lot of time and money practicing and reinforcing flawed technique.

That is an understatement, how many students do you know that are 40 hours still pushing towards their solo. So you ask them what is up and they say, "I don't know I have spend the last 30 hours in the pattern and I just can't land."

Edit: so = say added , and ""

 

[shdw]

Re: Student requesting CFI's advise

At the same time i have seen a few exceptions that were having difficulty with landing not because of basic deficiency, but they were afraid of the runway, or just had really bad hand eye coordination. Hence the "almost without fail" statement.

I have yet to find one of these but it is early for me (300 or so dual) but the ones I have had that were supposedly in PTS with the basics still had a problem with them.

Sure they perform all of the basics, but they never look outside when they do so no wonder they have a problem when they get near the ground. If it isn't that then they do the maneuvers to PTS but are noticeably not comfortable with what they are doing, their body is tense often tilting one way or another, or they are simply white knuckling and fighting it.

The last and worst kind that I find is the one that does all the maneuvers perfectly but can only do it if they follow one specific procedure, steep turns is a great example. The student banks into the steep turn, looking inside the most of the time while entering the bank or at the wing tip!!!!! (because some CFI said the strut parallel to the ground is 30 degrees!) and then do 1.5 turns back with the trim wheel and they are done, the plane flies itself.

When we turn and enter a bank on instruments, we do so with the attitude indicator as our primary. The students attitude indicator is about a 6x6 inch box drawn with the center eye level on the windscreen when looking over their right knee. If you drew a box around that then thats where they should be looking when they are turning, not at their wing strut, and certainly not at their instruments.

This type of student I ask to repeat the maneuver and not use the trim, sure enough they look all around paniced, and never once look STRAIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM and fly the plane. Instead we bounce all over the place while they try to guess between the instruments and the wing what the hell is going on, looking in front of them only to look for their outside reference point. Yet this same student can do a procedure 45 degree perfectly level steep turn, that isn't learning the basics in my book but from what I have seen it works just fine for many CFIs.

When I said basics I was referring to dropping a blanket over the instruments and being able to just look outside and fly the airplane. If you put the horizon eye level and keep it from dropping as you bank you can enter any degree bank you want without ever looking anywhere else and staying within 50 feet altitude all the way to 60 degrees if you want. Students rarely learn this and if they did and looked out at the damn horizon when they landed they would, without even realizing it, be able to judge their height by the trees climbing up into the horizon.

 

[ILS37R]

Hi all,

A previous post of mine discussed the problems I am having learning to land. I have 26 hours and have not done my solo yet because of the landing issues. I can't go on to other lessons until I solo ( Part 141) so it is costing me a fortune. Taking the advise of many, I went up yesterday with my schools Asst. Chief Flight Instructor to see if he can help. He tried his best but in hindsight we probably shouldn't of went up. The only objective of that flight was to work on my normal landings. As such the fact that there were cross winds at 10KT, gusting to 16 ( C-172) and the active runway was 3300' that I had only used once since January ( the runway we use most of the time is 5100') this eliminated the possibility of using more of the runway as some suggested because they had me doing touch and go's. I guess monday morning quarterbacking is easy to do. The landings were all the worst I have ever done as I have never worked on cross wind landings.

Is it permitted to hire a "free lance" cfi to work with me specifically on landings so it does not get entered into my lesson plan at my school. I do not want my current CFI getting in trouble because of all my "official" review flights. My thought is that I will work on my landings with someone else and return to my CFI when I am done. I want to be loyal to him as he has been very supportive and patient with me.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks:banghead:

First off, don't discount your crosswind, relatively short field landing practice as wasted time: it's good to get that experience even if it knocked your sock off this time. I had a student land with a stiff tailwind *on his first solo* because of an unforecast weather change during flight.

Don't worry about doing some flying outside of the syllabus. A 141 syllabus is a "these things must be done and must be done in roughly this order" document, but you're welcome to supplement that. Where you can run into trouble is if you, for example, do some random Part 61 cross-country and later try and use it for credit towards your 141 syllabus, especially if it was a non-approved route or significantly out-of-sequence (e.g. you want credit for a stage two lesson and you have/had not yet completed stage one).

Another set of eyes is still your best bet. If not another run with the assistant chief, then another instructor at or outside of the school might be good. It can sometimes be easy for an instructor who is familiar with your flying to miss simple things. And it may take another instructor a couple goes to figure out what it is.

But don't just do pattern work. Let them take you out to a practice area and do some air work, especially slow flight. Try following a road perpendicular to the wind--in and out of slow flight--to check on your wind correction and rudder control. Do some "landings" with your runway at 1500' AGL.

At the airport, try some "landings" where you stay in ground effect the entire time, never quite touching the wheels but staying on airspeed and centerline all the way the down. If you're in a Nav III, have the instructor dim out the PFD. If it's round dials, maybe have him or her cover them up, save for the airspeed indicator.

Finally, don't be afraid of the go-around. Every landing attempt is a go-aroud unless you like what you see. Don't let yourself feel pressured to force the wheels onto the ground. If you get uncomfortable, go-around. Maybe next attempt you'll get 20' lower, and the next you'll get into ground effect, and on the fourth attempt you'll finally have adjusted to wind and be able to put it down safely. It doesn't matter what tower clears you for, a go-around is always approved.

...

Ahem... so that's a bit more than what you asked, but my two cents.

 

[youngflyer]

At the airport, try some "landings" where you stay in ground effect the entire time, never quite touching the wheels but staying on airspeed and centerline all the way the down. If you're in a Nav III, have the instructor dim out the PFD. If it's round dials, maybe have him or her cover them up, save for the airspeed indicator.

This was the thing which helped me out the most. If you do it at a long runway like RME, it really allows you to see the sight picture for a good amount of time.