Student Pilots and LAHSO

tcco94

tcco94

Future GTA VI Pilot
AIM 4-3-11 states a student pilot should not participate in the program.

I'm getting the question "Can a student pilot accept a LAHSO?" from my students a lot. I'm not sure if it's been a common checkride question with other students but I said yes, because that's just a suggestion being apart of the AIM and it's also worded in a way that you shouldn't accept it, but not stated that you cannot accept it.

Some poorly written 141 guide my Chinese students keep reading states that you MAY NOT accept a LAHSO (MUST DECLINE it says) as a student pilot and as far as I've been able to dig and find, that is not the correct wording.:bang:

Am I missing something?
 
gotWXdagain said:
Legally they can accept, however a flight school may have their own policy that prohibits accepting.
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Exactly what I thought. Just wanted to verify. Don't know who made this study guide for the students but it's for a checkride so it's not even about the school policy....just specifically talking about legal or not.

Thank you.
 
For some reason, I heard from alot of CFIs and other flight school peeps that students can't participate. Never understood where they got that understanding from...

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ahsmatt7 said:
For some reason, I heard from alot of CFIs and other flight school peeps that students can't participate. Never understood where they got that understanding from...

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Yup and I've had superior experienced CFI's tell me that too....but have no evidence to back it up.

Talking about legality...not company procedures
 
I wonder if it's a flight school policy for liability and insurance reasons as dumb as that sounds.


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azmedic said:
I wonder if it's a flight school policy for liability and insurance reasons as dumb as that sounds.


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For my students, I wouldn't trust them doing any LAHSO but we're so strict on their solo airports that it doesn't really matter anyways...they only go 3 places.
 
To Play Devils Advocate

1. Where does it say you have to stop at a hold short line in the FARs? Only the Aim States this. So next time you cross it without a clearance, you can just tell the FAA guy that "It’s just a recommendation".

2. FAA Order 7110.118 (or 7110.118A) http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/7110.118.pdf States:"...b. Solo student pilots will not conduct LAHSO..." or "f. When arriving pilots identify themselves to the local controller as a solo student pilot, that pilot must not be issued a LAHSO clearance". This puts this in the same category as #1.

3. AIM procedures; have been used in evidence against the defendant in multiple NTSB court cases to support a 91.13 violation. Is the AIM regulatory in nature? Not always (think of the recommended entry into a hold that has no rule anywhere, it’s just a suggestion), However, another scenario, the AIM states that an alternate airport should have an approach other than GPS if your first airport has a GPS approach you are going to use (if you dont have WAAS). The regulatory requirement for this statement would be found in the supplement and a combination of, AC and FAA Order documents.

So yea, a student should not accept a LAHSO...
 
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fiveninerzero said:
Shall, will and must are the legally binding words. Even then, the AIM isn't regulatory. I did LAHSO all the time when I was a student.
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True enough, not "regulatory". However, next time you get ramped or screw up and are found to be operating in contravention of AIM "guidelines" you'll probably re-assess the vigor with which you make that statement.
 
Fly_Unity said:
To Play Devils Advocate
1. Where does it say you have to stop at a hold short line in the FARs? Only the Aim States this. So next time you cross it without a clearance, you can just tell the FAA guy that "It’s just a recommendation".
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Well, there are about a million other ATC instructions you are required to comply with, or advise them otherwise.
91.123
(b)Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
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The AIM conveniently describes a whole bunch of ATC instructions in the interest of brevity and standard phraseology. Ultimately though, you need to comply with whatever instructions ATC gives you, whether described in the AIM or not.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Well, there are about a million other ATC instructions you are required to comply with, or advise them otherwise.


The AIM conveniently describes a whole bunch of ATC instructions in the interest of brevity and standard phraseology. Ultimately though, you need to comply with whatever instructions ATC gives you, whether described in the AIM or not.
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Correct, But you are still expected to hold short of the Runway regardless if ATC does not give you instruction to do so. My point # 1 was tied directly to my point # 2 and 3.
 
Honestly, no one should accept a LAHSO. I wouldn't accept one with 100,000ft before it. They are beyond dumb, and should just be done away with.
 
Mike Wise said:
I can't remember , but I believe it was a policy at my old school when I was a student pilot. @CFI A&P would know best.
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Frankly I don't remember. However my FAA approved collision avoidance program was always in effect. It is a comprehensive program that can be used while airborne or during ground operations.

"Do you see that _________ over there?" Could be line service, cones, chocks, another airplane, birds, structures, etc...

"Yes."

"Good. Don't hit it."

This concludes Collision Avoidance v1.0. Wings credit will be granted upon the completion of this program. Please click the following link for your Wings credit form.

 
I did my Private at a primary airport within Class B airspace. If one chooses not to accept a LAHSO, you might as well go to another airport, because as busy as that one was, you had to do a LAHSO just to get in without waiting until 0200.
 
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