Student Loans and Investing/Retirement

Sir if you are debt free and making at least market average returns on at least 15% of your income, well done. If you're older, in debt, and not making at least 10% or better on at least 15% of your income... we'll just have to wait and see who is further ahead in 20 years.

That system I mentioned worked to keep unmotivated, weak emotionally and minded me, going in the correct direction to be debt free at 27.
 
Sir if you are debt free and making at least market average returns on at least 15% of your income, well done. If you're older, in debt, and not making at least 10% or better on at least 15% of your income... we'll just have to wait and see who is further ahead in 20 years.

That system I mentioned worked to keep unmotivated, weak emotionally and minded me, going in the correct direction to be debt free at 27.

Part of the problem is that you ascribe value to being debt free simply for the sake of being debt free. Which of the following is better:

A. Being completely debt free; or
B. Taking out a $1 million loan at 0.99% interest

If you answered A, then you should probably have someone else manage your finances.
 
I like my gains. I like my lack of debt. Happiness is worth so much. God bless. :rolleyes:

From a very smart man:

"When leverage works, it magnifies your gains. Your spouse thinks you're clever, and your neighbors get envious," explained Buffett in his 2010 shareholder letter. "But leverage is addictive. Once having profited from its wonders, very few people retreat to more conservative practices. And as we all learned in third grade — and some relearned in 2008 — any series of positive numbers, however impressive the numbers may be, evaporates when multiplied by a single zero. History tells us that leverage all too often produces zeroes, even when it is employed by very smart people."
 
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Part of the problem is that you ascribe value to being debt free simply for the sake of being debt free. Which of the following is better:

A. Being completely debt free; or
B. Taking out a $1 million loan at 0.99% interest

If you answered A, then you should probably have someone else manage your finances.
It's piece of mind isn't it?

I'm debt free except for the house. Gives me comfort to move forward withthe next house purchase. It may not be perfect but it has its advantages.

For what it's worth having B would be a great problem to have assuming I have income to pay the .99% interest. I'd take B.

Those are extreme examples and those are choices Brian hasn't in front of him. Rid yourself of unwanted debt I say, make choices that don't keep yourself lying awake at night.
 
What I really need is option c. A 1mil loan for -1%APR. I want a loan where they pay me $10k a year in interest to use their money.

Lets get creative here.

I sure don't have the option for a less than 1% loan on 1 mil. ATN Pilot do you honestly have that option? I will subscribe to your school of awesomeness if that is the case. Unless you're leveraging your home and two cars to make that happen.
 
His example is extreme but makes a valid point and that is this. If you can make money with borrowed money make sure the % you're making is over the % you're paying to borrow.
If you are scared of debt then you shouldn't manage you're own money. The world runs on the management of debt.
 
I'm with @brian434 on this. I've never really had much money so maybe that plays into it but having peace of mind about finances is far more important to me than leveraging myself for higher gains elsewhere. Simplifying it of course.

Some people are risk takers of varying degree while others are risk averse. I really don't get why it's such a bad thing for someone to want to be debt free and be happy with just that. Not everyone needs to squeeze every penny out of a dollar to be happy.
 
Well you guys are right. I make great returns and am happy to have very limited debt. Must be an idiot.
 
niglet-meme-generator-mo-money-mo-problems-6de88b.jpg
 
For what it's worth having B would be a great problem to have assuming I have income to pay the .99% interest. I'd take B.

Simply having the money provides you with the income to not only pay the interest, but to accumulate more money (that accumulates more interest, etc.). Even if you're so incompetent that you can only get a 3% rate of return, that $1 million would return $30k per year. You are only paying $9,900 in interest on the loan. That means that you're pocketing $20,100 per year.

Obviously, this is not a real world example. But it's an example that makes the complex simple. Because this sort of calculation is exactly what you should always be doing. If you have credit cards that are only charging you 3.99% interest, then you shouldn't be paying them off. If your mortgage loan is 4.25%, then you shouldn't be paying that off. Why? Because any idiot can get a 7% rate of return on his investments by simply dumping all of his money into an S&P 500 ETF and setting it to automatically reinvest dividends. You never have to touch it, never have to know what you're doing, and you're making more money than you would save by paying off that debt.

This is why idiots like Dave Ramsey shouldn't be giving people financial advice. They don't teach the above. Instead, they tell you to be debt free, even though it may be costing you a ton of money to do so. You should do whatever it takes to maximize your net worth. That is what ultimately brings peace of mind.
 
Simply having the money provides you with the income to not only pay the interest, but to accumulate more money (that accumulates more interest, etc.). Even if you're so incompetent that you can only get a 3% rate of return, that $1 million would return $30k per year. You are only paying $9,900 in interest on the loan. That means that you're pocketing $20,100 per year.

Obviously, this is not a real world example. But it's an example that makes the complex simple. Because this sort of calculation is exactly what you should always be doing. If you have credit cards that are only charging you 3.99% interest, then you shouldn't be paying them off. If your mortgage loan is 4.25%, then you shouldn't be paying that off. Why? Because any idiot can get a 7% rate of return on his investments by simply dumping all of his money into an S&P 500 ETF and setting it to automatically reinvest dividends. You never have to touch it, never have to know what you're doing, and you're making more money than you would save by paying off that debt.

This is why idiots like Dave Ramsey shouldn't be giving people financial advice. They don't teach the above. Instead, they tell you to be debt free, even though it may be costing you a ton of money to do so. You should do whatever it takes to maximize your net worth. That is what ultimately brings peace of mind.
Problem is these people are at the end of their credit ropes and can't leverage themselves out because they have no more money to be loaned to them.
 
Problem is these people are at the end of their credit ropes and can't leverage themselves out because they have no more money to be loaned to them.

That's not what I'm telling them to do. I'm telling them to pay off their highest interest debt first, instead of paying off the lowest balance. After they've done that, then they'll be in a position to be able to use leverage to their benefit.
 
That's not what I'm telling them to do. I'm telling them to pay off their highest interest debt first, instead of paying off the lowest balance. After they've done that, then they'll be in a position to be able to use leverage to their benefit.
Dave Ramsey does talk about the mathematically correct way to pay off consumer debt but he goes with the studied and proven psychological way of paying off debt. I've read the studies and they have also been cited in fortune and money magazines. People can pay debt quicker when they see progress.
 
I'm only aware of one peer reviewed study, and it was by researchers at Kellogg. The problem with the study was that it only included raw data sets, and didn't involve any education of the people they were studying. They simply got a bulk collection of data of 6,000 people who paid off their debt and they compared the people who paid off low balances first to the people who paid off high interest balances first. This is useless data. The real question is which method would work best if the people in debt are correctly instructed on how to pay off their debt quickest and with the least interest paid.
 
I'm only aware of one peer reviewed study, and it was by researchers at Kellogg. The problem with the study was that it only included raw data sets, and didn't involve any education of the people they were studying. They simply got a bulk collection of data of 6,000 people who paid off their debt and they compared the people who paid off low balances first to the people who paid off high interest balances first. This is useless data. The real question is which method would work best if the people in debt are correctly instructed on how to pay off their debt quickest and with the least interest paid.
There are a few other studies done as well. Problem is even when you educate people on the best way to pay it off psychology and being able to easily view small successes wins out for most people.
 
There are a few other studies done as well. Problem is even when you educate people on the best way to pay it off psychology and being able to easily view small successes wins out for most people.

Sorry, I don't buy that for one second. And regardless, even if it would get someone debt free (again, not a worthy goal in and of itself), it doesn't produce someone who truly knows how to manage their finances. You end up with someone who is debt free but still doesn't have a clue how to properly allocate capital. This isn't a path to success.
 
Simply having the money provides you with the income to not only pay the interest, but to accumulate more money (that accumulates more interest, etc.). Even if you're so incompetent that you can only get a 3% rate of return, that $1 million would return $30k per year. You are only paying $9,900 in interest on the loan. That means that you're pocketing $20,100 per year.

Obviously, this is not a real world example. But it's an example that makes the complex simple. Because this sort of calculation is exactly what you should always be doing. If you have credit cards that are only charging you 3.99% interest, then you shouldn't be paying them off. If your mortgage loan is 4.25%, then you shouldn't be paying that off. Why? Because any idiot can get a 7% rate of return on his investments by simply dumping all of his money into an S&P 500 ETF and setting it to automatically reinvest dividends. You never have to touch it, never have to know what you're doing, and you're making more money than you would save by paying off that debt.

This is why idiots like Dave Ramsey shouldn't be giving people financial advice. They don't teach the above. Instead, they tell you to be debt free, even though it may be costing you a ton of money to do so. You should do whatever it takes to maximize your net worth. That is what ultimately brings peace of mind.

THAT^

The Idiots ETF™ is definitely where it's at when you're getting started/educated.

I too, payed off substantial debt when I had a high(er) paying job. It was a fools errand and I'd be sitting a hell of a lot better off if I hadn't had done that. I look back at what Ford stock did in 2010-11 and shake my head at my mindset. That alone would have been a what, 800% gain? That was a bit risky though.

I don't get the peace of mind thing. It's not like I couldn't move the money if I lost my job or whatever, and I'd have even MORE money at my disposal.
 
I don't get the peace of mind thing. It's not like I couldn't move the money if I lost my job or whatever, and I'd have even MORE money at my disposal.

Exactly. It doesn't do you any good to be free of low interest debt if you have no capital.

Money may not buy happiness, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to be happy. A big stack of cash gives you security and options. No matter what comes along, money can probably take care of it. Health problems? Lost job? Car problems? Roof needs replaced? Whatever the problem that comes along, money is usually able to resolve it if you've got enough of it. And following the Dave Ramsey model is not the way to be in that position and have true peace of mind.
 
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