student busted airspace on a solo

B

butt

New Member
My last student was doing his last solo, (the last time I was ever going to have to deal with the liability of sending a student off solo), and he busts a class C.

He was flying above it, then he said the engine started to get rough. So he then descended to land at an underlying uncontrolled field, without calling anybody. He just got back, and I was told by another instructor to call the radar facility.

What do I tell them? "Hi, my student just flew through your airspace. Here is my name and certificate number, please send a FAA person over here to take my certificate away, thanks."
 
Have the student fill out a NASA form, call the ATC facility and tell them about the emergency, file a report with them if requested.
 
butt said:
What do I tell them? "Hi, my student just flew through your airspace. Here is my name and certificate number, please send a FAA person over here to take my certificate away, thanks."
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That won't happen. The FSDO may want to talk to you, but it will probably end there.
 
Clocks said:
Have the student fill out a NASA form, call the ATC facility and tell them about the emergency, file a report with them if requested.
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have any tips on finding the phone number I'm supposed to call? I tried googling, but all I was able to come up with was a number that goes to the city offices, which are closed today (sunday). Nothing is in the AFD.
 
Clocks said:
Have the student fill out a NASA form, call the ATC facility and tell them about the emergency, file a report with them if requested.
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butt should =also= fill one out. If it does become a problem I agree with tgrayson that it probably won't) , the student's NASA report won't provide any certifciate protection for the CFI.

Butt, if you're looking for a phone number and can't find it via Google or an A/FD, try calling FSS ( of course, these days that's a problem by itself)
 
Confused... if he conducted all the appropriate pre-solo training and documented it properly, what's to worry about? (Honest question.)
 
tgrayson said:
Don't think the program can protect butt from any certificate action.
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I'd have to agree with this. My very limited understanding of the law makes me think the CFI would be violated (if at all) for inadequate training, or supervision during preflight planning, or something similar. I don't know if a NASA form will protect the CFI for that :confused:
 
Clocks said:
I'd have to agree with this. My very limited understanding of the law makes me think the CFI would be violated for inadequate training, or supervision during preflight planning, or something similar. I don't know if a NASA form will protect the CFI for that :confused:
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He might get a 44709 ride, which is a reevaluation for his competency. The program excludes this.

Still, that's very unlikely to happen, unless something else crops up that makes the FAA think the instructor is a knucklehead. Student pilots do stuff like this all the time without the instructor getting into any kind of trouble.
 
butt said:
have any tips on finding the phone number I'm supposed to call? I tried googling, but all I was able to come up with was a number that goes to the city offices, which are closed today (sunday). Nothing is in the AFD.
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Try this:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/flight_bag/pdfs/atc.pdf

If the link doesn't work, I just searched for "control tower phone numbers" and the aopa link was pretty near the top.

There are also quite a few numbers in the back of the AFD. If your number isn't back there, I'm sure if you call one of the nearby towers, they'll be able to get you the right number.

Maybe this should be another topic, but what do you guys think about calling the proper controlling facility via a cell phone while IFR after an electrical failure? While using the phone would be against the regs, it seems like it would be worthwhile to break that one. I think I'll start carrying that list of phone numbers...

Butt, be sure to let us know what happens.
 
91.3 says that you're allowed to deviate from any rule to meet the needs of an emergency. Knowing that if the student informs the FAA and the controlling agency of the emergency, it will most likely stop there.
 
tgrayson said:
Don't think the program can protect butt from any certificate action.
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The program doesn't protect =anyone= from certifciate action.

But I don't see anywhere in the program materials that the sanction waiver doesn't apply to certificate actions that might be taken against an instructor certifciate as opposed to a pilot or mechanic certificate.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
The program doesn't protect =anyone= from certifciate action.
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Ok, it protects you from the =consequences= of the violation.

MidlifeFlyer said:
But I don't see anywhere in the program materials that the sanction waiver doesn't apply to certificate actions that might be taken against an instructor certifciate as opposed to a pilot or mechanic certificate.
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It specifically exempts 44709:
The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR is considered by FAA to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
  1. the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
  2. the violation did not involve a criminal offense, or accident. or action under 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
  3. [etc]
Now, I suppose if an instructor forgot a solo signoff or such, they might could just pursue a violation of a Part 61, but the 709 ride is most often people *talk about* with regard to instructor mistakes.
 
tgrayson said:
Ok, it protects you from the =consequences= of the violation.
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That's a big difference. And it's only the FAA penalty consequences. There are probably a few people here who can talk about the career consequences of a finding of a violation, even if there is no certificate suspension.

I'm being intentionally picky on this. I've seen more than a few discussions of the ASRP that were loaded with misinformation about what the program is and what the program covers.

It specifically exempts 44709:
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True, but that's with respect to pilot as well as CFI certificates.

Bottom line for me, anyway, is that (1) filing the report won't hurt; (2) in the unlikely event that there is a certificate action that seeks a suspension or revocation of a CFI certifciate (as opposed to an administrative action such as a 709 ride) it would probably avoid the penalty and (3) the student's report will not aid the CFI.

Now, I suppose if an instructor forgot a solo signoff or such, they might could just pursue a violation of a Part 61, but the 709 ride is most often people *talk about* with regard to instructor mistakes.
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It's nice what people "talk about." But to me anyway, "Oh heck, they probably won't bother you and if they do they won't try to suspend your certificate," is not a good reason to not file.
 
You know I once had a student pvt on his last solo xcountry who went from DAB to MIA. He took off round 2 pm, and by 5, having no news I started wondering where the hell he was. At 7pm, still no contact, I called just about everybody. I was FREAKED OUT. By 11pm my home phone rings "hey I was tired, I stopped by PBI to grab a bite, and I got kinda carried away. Being Florida, sun sets quite early compared to northerner cities. So I tell him to sleep in the airplane and wait until the next morning to fly back. Being a total dumbass he showed up at my house by 2am. I just about beat him up. Some guys that you think are pretty straitghforward sometimes turn to be complete morons when faced to extraordinary circonstances. I didn't get in trouble with the Feds since I kept them up to date and basically had no control over that dumb ass.
 
I had a student porpoise down the runway and snap a nose wheel of a 152, she was ok but the FAA was quick to come and help out! I was sweating it big time for the hour it took them to get to the airport but when they got there they just wanted to talk to her. They told me that this happens alot and that it's hard to teach hands on what to do if they never porpoise during training. I had told her 100s of times to go around if it starts to bounce but I guess she said she froze up because she had never experienced it before. Who knows but when it was all over and done she got an incident on her record and they said that nothing would be on my record and not to worry about it. And they still don't even know my name. I wouldnt sweat it too much... Just don't make a habit of it...
 
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