STEEP TURNS

J

jetman

New Member
Im having dificulties doing steep turns in the 172.I cant concistantly stay withing +or - 50 feet of the starting altitude or 5 knots diference in the airspeed.For some reason my pitch control is bad
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enough to allow this .
Havent flown the C-150 in a long time but i remember not having any problems doing steep turns and "freezing'' the ALT
ASI and VSI.I dont seem to have any problems in any other manouvres in the C-172 except when doing a 180 [50 bank] and reversing the turn back[50 bank] to the original heading.
Any ideas how to correct this problem?
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one Word...

TRIM

Use the trim once youve established your back pressure at the 30 degree bank point. The 172 has a MUCH heavier feel than a 150. The trim will help out a bunch.

As for the airspeed... just add about 100-200 RPM after rolling into the turn, that should help.
 
As soon as you have the bank angle locked in, see exactly where the horizon cuts across the top of the instrument panel. That becomes a key visual reference, and immediately adjust your pitch if the horizon drop below or rises above that point.
 
Yes thanks very much for suggestions,i havent taken a dual with an instructor in such a long time that probabely some bad habits are cripping in :
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I add about 200rpm and one full roll of nose up trim as I am entering the turn and that seems to work in my 172. I'm sure you will master it again soon. Good luck!
 
Well, it sounds like you're working on you commercial. I'm still pre-private (taking checkride in 2 days) but have been able to perform steep turns within commercial PTS. What helps me is to make sure I slow to 95, and am on altitue, am trimmed and stabaized before beginning the turn. I use the horizon more than instruments to judge altitude and bank, and if I see or feel that I'm starting to get off, I fix it immediately before it starts to snowball. Use the VSI for precision, and remember that any adjustment you have to make to fix altitude or bank is going to require a power adjustment to keep airspeed constant. I don't know about using trim. I personally haven't found trim to be helpfull in a steep turn because once I get established, I'm established, and it shouldn't require control pressure that I couldn't hold for the duration of the turn. It would just be one more thing that might get me messed up. You could give it a try though and if it works for you by all means use it. All in all your best bet is probably to go up with an instructor so he/she can pinpoint where it is you are going wrong and give you advise. Good luck!
 
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Use the VSI for precision, and remember that any adjustment you have to make to fix altitude or bank is going to require a power adjustment to keep airspeed constant.

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I'd suggest using the altimeter for precision more than anything here. But hey, that's me.

In a 172, roll in and give it two pulls of up-trim. That'll usually do the trick for entry, and feel free to play with it after you start the maneuver. It also doesn't hurt to go to full power, especially for commercial steep turns. If you get a little fast, that's fine. Remember, you have +/- 10 to play with.
 
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I'd suggest using the altimeter for precision more than anything here. But hey, that's me.

In a 172, roll in and give it two pulls of up-trim. That'll usually do the trick for entry, and feel free to play with it after you start the maneuver. It also doesn't hurt to go to full power, especially for commercial steep turns. If you get a little fast, that's fine. Remember, you have +/- 10 to play with.

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Actually, as an experienced flight instructor, I don't recommend any of that, in fact I think it would drastically increase your workload.

Your VSI will show an instantaneous pitch change (albeit not as quickly as glancing out of the window at the horizon) and is much more sensitive than the altimeter. Without flying with you its hard to know "exactly" the problem, but the common error is inadequate, or too much pressure on the control wheel at the wrong time. As you roll through 30, increase back pressure slightly and as you reach your desired bank angle, check the VSI; then make corrections as necessary. Always maintain a good reference point on the windshield that is directly in front of you, not the dashboard, and use that rather than focusing on your altimeter.

As for your A/S control, I agree with the others who suggested adding about 200rpm as you roll into the turn.

Hope that helps.
Jay
 
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Actually, as an experienced flight instructor, I don't recommend any of that, in fact I think it would drastically increase your workload.

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Hard to argue with that.
 
As an instructor myself I agree it does increase your workload for the first 6 seconds of the maneuver... if you trimmed and stable before starting you can enter the maneuver add 200 rpm and appx two full trim strokes nose up and fly the turns "hands off". Again this is my experience... *$.02*
 
my first instructor said, "two shots of trim works so well it was like it was meant to be......" that still holds true for me even in my commercial training...and the electric trim in the arrow makes it that much easier.
 
I don't teach my students to use trim during steep turns. I like to "feel" how the airplane flies. If a student is having problems with steep turns it usually stems from looking at the instruments instead of outside. I often let them use their instruments to roll in, then cover them and fly the rest of the maneuver visually. They can see the pitch and bank. As for airspeed, I have them listen to the airplane. Is there more wind noise, less wind noise, RPM's increasing, decreasing, etc...? It almost always works like a champ.

If this doesn't work I'll take the controls and let them critique my steep turns, again with the instruments covered. They can usually tell if I'm high, low, fast, slow, too much bank, not enough bank, etc...

Be careful with your airspeed tolerances, it's true you have +/- 10 kts, but that is not to exceed Va. So if you start at Va, technically you only have -10 kts. I always have my students start at Va-10 so the margin for error is larger.
 
Interesting to read those recommendations about using the altimeter or the VSI. I teach the exact opposite. I'm convinces that the most common reason for failure to hold altitude is using these instruments rather than looking out the window on this =visual= maneuver.

So, when one of my students has trouble holding altitude on this or any other visual maneuver, I cover the altimeter and VSI. Forces the pilot to fly pitch (what a concept!). Fast and effective.
 
I'm with MidlifeFlyer on this one
Its a visual maneuver so you must develope the sight picture appropriate to the maneuver. I'm middle of the road on the trim issue, I too like to "feel" the airplane in the steep turn, but a little help goes along way. As far as the Altimeter -vs- the VSI ... I teach glance at the altimeter then get right back outside and then interpret what you just saw ... if the altitude is off make a small correction ... DON'T chase the VSI you will loose even with an instant VSI. It also may help to review the common errors of the maneuver and understand why pilots make those common errors then compensate for these errors as appropriate. I too cover up instruments when training these maneuvers as it forces the pilot to look outside and develope the appropriate flight attitude, side note on EFIS equiped airplanes I blank out the displays to force the issue.

Jim
 
What helps me the most is to get the perfect mental picture of where a perfect steep turn is, ie. where the horizon intersects the dash. What I did was have my instructor do a few steep turns so i could get the picture in my head as to where the horizon should be, from there it was alot better.

my $.02
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Ryan
 
Two words: Cowling screws

Those two lines of screws on the cowling do more than just hold it together. The offer a fine visual reference during steep turns. Like everyone else said, one full spin of the trim wheel and about 100 rpms, and that does it for me. Normally, if I put the row of screws right on the horizon, the altimeter pretty much sticks. Roll the other way, and the screws are slightly lower, but with the same results. 'Course your milege (and seat height) may vary.
 
Here goes a twist....Whats best when doing these "under the hood"? I'd go with the trim back/rpm route. Anyone else.....
 
Well I'm not exactly an expert flying yet, but I've been taught to coordinate the turn with some rudder if the nose begins to pitch differently. This helps to keep the plane from drifting up or down.
 
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Here goes a twist....Whats best when doing these "under the hood"? I'd go with the trim back/rpm route. Anyone else.....

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I actually find them easier under the hood, I'm one of those Microsoft pilots. Just keep the dot in the center of the AI, keep the wingtips on the 45 degree dot (assuming your AI has one) and try to keep all the needles still. The actual control inputs you make should be no different.
 
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