steep turns in the cherokee

comstsa

comstsa

Well-Known Member
The Cherokee POH prohibits steep turns in the normal category. Which keeps me from taking up a backseater on lessons with steep turns. My question is what does the Cherokee POH consider a steep turn? The warrior POH has simillar limitations but it states "maneuvers in excess of 60 degrees of bank". Anybody know?
 
Think of it this way. What is the max loading for a normal category aircraft and then how much loading will the airplane experience in a steep turn?
 
They AFM also recommends spin entry speed of 124kts. I don't know anyone who actually does them that fast.. Just stay in your limits. If you're normal category you're +3.8, if you're at 45 degrees you're not even to 2G's. Anyone agree/disagree?
 
I have never seen a POH for a cherokee that limited steep turns to the utility category.
 
juxtapilot said:
The limitation is there for Steep Turns, Chandelles and Lazy Eights.
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I can understand limiting steep turns and spins to the utility category, but what's the logic behind restricting lazy 8's?

It's been a while since I've flown that maneuver, but I recall it being pretty much 1G throughout the whole process, so I can't see why it would be limited to the utility category.
 
ndakcfi said:
I can understand limiting steep turns and spins to the utility category, but what's the logic behind restricting lazy 8's?

It's been a while since I've flown that maneuver, but I recall it being pretty much 1G throughout the whole process, so I can't see why it would be limited to the utility category.
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Maybe it's a typo and he ment "crazy 8's"...?
 
Are we talking the whole PA28 line here? I know of a lot of flight schools who use them, with people in the back for all the commercial maneuvers. You're not going to touch +3.8 in a 60* steep turn, so I don't see how this could possibly be a problem.
 
z987k said:
Are we talking the whole PA28 line here? I know of a lot of flight schools who use them, with people in the back for all the commercial maneuvers. You're not going to touch +3.8 in a 60* steep turn, so I don't see how this could possibly be a problem.
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I think it's only in the earlier models... The warriors don't have the limitation AFAIK...
 
I'm gonna side step my ego here and ask someone to dumb it down for me... I understand the 3.8 limit, but how do you calculate the load factor during specific degrees of bank? I need to be able to show the chief pilot exactly why its okay for us to take back seaters during steep turns as long as we keep it below a certain bank angle and within load limits.
 
I'm thinking it may not just be a load factor problem, but I can't think of anything else that would cause this maneuver to be a limitation. Any ideas?
 
comstsa said:
I'm gonna side step my ego here and ask someone to dumb it down for me... I understand the 3.8 limit, but how do you calculate the load factor during specific degrees of bank? I need to be able to show the chief pilot exactly why its okay for us to take back seaters during steep turns as long as we keep it below a certain bank angle and within load limits.
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Have you never seen this graph?

load_factor_bank.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_factor_(aeronautics)
 
comstsa said:
I'm thinking it may not just be a load factor problem, but I can't think of anything else that would cause this maneuver to be a limitation. Any ideas?
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Its just probably because of the old standards in aircraft certification. There's absolutely no reason Lazy eights shouldn't be performed in the Normal category... Like it was pointed out earlier, it's a 1 g maneuver. Steep turns are a 2 g maneuver, which is is way under normal category as well.... There might be a AFM supplement with new limitations but I sort of doubt it.
 
I have an old POH for a PA-28-140B. Under "Maneuvers" it says,"The airplane is approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers, provided it is loaded within the approved weight and center of gravity limits. (See Airplane Flight Manual) The maneuvers are spins, steep turns, lazy eights and chandelles."

So as long as you remain within the the CG limits for these maneuvers, the maneuvers are approved. Doing anything other than that would be operating the airplane contrary to the operating limitations set by the manufacturer.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
I have an old POH for a PA-28-140B. Under "Maneuvers" it says,"The airplane is approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers, provided it is loaded within the approved weight and center of gravity limits. (See Airplane Flight Manual) The maneuvers are spins, steep turns, lazy eights and chandelles."

So as long as you remain within the the CG limits for these maneuvers, the maneuvers are approved. Doing anything other than that would be operating the airplane contrary to the operating limitations set by the manufacturer.
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Huh... ever spun a Cherokee? Most are not rated for spins. Wonder what sets the 140 apart.
 
ndakcfi said:
I can understand limiting steep turns and spins to the utility category, but what's the logic behind restricting lazy 8's?

It's been a while since I've flown that maneuver, but I recall it being pretty much 1G throughout the whole process, so I can't see why it would be limited to the utility category.
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Not if you're in a 150 Aerobat wearing parachutes doing it the way it should be done ;)
 
z987k said:
Huh... ever spun a Cherokee? Most are not rated for spins. Wonder what sets the 140 apart.
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A "Cherokee" can be anything from a 140 to an Arrow to a Six. Thats a lot of variance!

Never held one in a developed spin, just did incipient recoveries from different departure scenarios.
 
ndakcfi said:
I can understand limiting steep turns and spins to the utility category, but what's the logic behind restricting lazy 8's?

It's been a while since I've flown that maneuver, but I recall it being pretty much 1G throughout the whole process, so I can't see why it would be limited to the utility category.
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To understand why these limitations are put in place you need to look into the definition of what is considered "aerobatic flight" The issue is not a correctly flown maneuver. Even with the mild aerobatic maneuvers approved in the Cherokee, if flown badly, there is a potential for excessive pitch or bank possibly leading into and unusual attitude or spin where the recovery could quickly approach the normal category structural limitations.

Take aileron rolls, for example. There's nothing harmful happening to the airplane during a nicely executed aileron roll. Do it wrong and things will get ugly fast.
 
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