Steep Spirals

dakovich

dakovich

Well-Known Member
just wondering what different opinions people have in regards to steep spirals. I've had examiners that require that students keep a nice tight steep spiral around their point(ie. keep a tight bank 30 or more degrees, no more than 60 of course), and I've also run into examiners that only care that you keep some kind of equal track around the point(ie. no specific bank angle, you could keep 5 degrees the whole time). so what ways have you guys/gals been teaching your students to do steep spirals?? keep a tight bank?? just keep a nice track around the point?? or both??
 
i base it mostly on wind. i want the student to remain between 1/4 mi and 1/2 mi.

if the wind is strong the banks are going to be tighter. if there isn't any wind, then there will theoretically be no change in bank angle.
 
Besides the name of the maneuver, what says it has to be even remotely steep? The Airplane Flying Handbook gives a maximum, but no minimum. Quoted, from the AFH:

"A steep spiral is nothing more than a constant gliding turn, during which a constant radius around a point on the ground is maintained...the radius should be such that the steepest bank will not exceed 60 degrees."

Any examiner that says it has to be at least a 30 degree bank is wrong. You could do it at a 2 degree bank angle if you want, but you'd probably have to be at about 14,000 feet in order to make 3 turns and not descend below 1000 AGL.

I teach people to do whatever they're comfortable with....some like it tight and fast, some would rather do 20 or 30 degree bank angles and take longer. I prefer to do a more shallow 20 or 30 degree bank, but that's just me.

Whatever they do, I tell people that it still has to be a ground reference maneuver. You have to know where the wind is. If you're going downwind you should be at your steepest bank angle, and shallowest bank when coming directly upwind.

Also, make sure that the turns are all the same size...it is easy to make the first turn fairly shallow, then steepen the bank as you descend, but that is incorrect. Doing so proves you did not keep a constant radius.
 
I can see doing a steep spiral at a shallow bank but you would have to be at 6 or more thousand feet to get all three rotations in with such a long time in each turn. I've done all my spirals starting at 3500 feet mantaining 90knots for an Arrow and keeping a 40 or 50 degree angle.
 
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I teach people to do whatever they're comfortable with....some like it tight and fast, some would rather do 20 or 30 degree bank angles and take longer. I prefer to do a more shallow 20 or 30 degree bank, but that's just me.


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Around here the DE's and FSDO say steep means steep, the initial turn should be up to 60 degrees. Then adjust your bank accordingly. If you read a little further in the airplane flying handbook it says the maneuver is a valuable tool for dissipating altitude while remaining over a selected spot. I know 2-3 students who busted their commercial ride because they were using 15-30 degrees of bank and they weren't over their point. That's just the way the some of the DE's around here have interpreted the maneuver.

If you start the maneuver downwind that will be your fastest groundspeed and you shouldn't have to worry about exceeding 60 degrees of bank the rest of the way around. Also, if you can find a point where two roads, power lines, train tracks, canals, etc... intersect you can use those to judge the radius of your turn. Just fly the same distance away from your point when you cross the roads or whatever you're using. That's helpful when training CFI students because if you fly it tight with lots of bank it can be difficult to see your point.
 
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If you read a little further in the airplane flying handbook it says the maneuver is a valuable tool for dissipating altitude while remaining over a selected spot. I know 2-3 students who busted their commercial ride because they were using 15-30 degrees of bank and they weren't over their point.

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I think that's the bigger issue, that the applicant wasn't over their point. Did they fail specifically because of the bank angle or because of not staying over their point?

The way I fly them with a shallower bank, I can't see the point because it is under the wing in an Arrow. I just look into the distance along the section lines and visualize the intersection of two roads under the wing. I'm also familiar enough with how much change in bank is needed for various wind conditions, and sort of estimate the amount of bank needed around the circle.

Maybe I'm too confrontational, but I'd really take issue with any examiner who busts an applicant on something that is so nebulous in the AFH and PTS.
 
They flew the same distance around their point, but according to the DE's they weren't "over" their point. The less bank you use, the farther away from the point you will be.

I agree with their statment that it's a steep spiral and you should use close to 60 degrees on the initial turn, but I don't think these guys should have busted their rides on this maneuver when the rest of the flight and oral went well.

Any time someone doesn't pass a checkride at my school the DE, Chief Pilot, and instructor have a nice or not so nice chat as to why the student didn't pass.
 
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I agree with their statment that it's a steep spiral and you should use close to 60 degrees on the initial turn, but I don't think these guys should have busted their rides on this maneuver when the rest of the flight and oral went well.

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Agree. Does the guy have a basic understanding of the maneuver and what you're trying to accomplish with it? Does he get the basics of it down and accomplish it, recognizing and correcting any major errors? Does he show good basic aircraft control and is he safe? Then fine. Am pesonally not looking for some precise points on the maneuver, just a good understanding of making it happen, and how to adjust to make it happen (winds/bank angles, etc).
 
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Does the guy have a basic understanding of the maneuver and what you're trying to accomplish with it?

[/ QUOTE ] I'm shocked! You expect people to think about what the maneuver is trying to accomplish!!!???

"Steep" spiral. "Dissipate altitude quickly".

That tells me power off and a bank angle that will result in a high, but controlled rate of descent. A leisurely 15° bank while the engine is on fire or the passenger need immediate medical attention doesn't cut it for me either.
 
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Does the guy have a basic understanding of the maneuver and what you're trying to accomplish with it?

[/ QUOTE ] I'm shocked! You expect people to think about what the maneuver is trying to accomplish!!!???

"Steep" spiral. "Dissipate altitude quickly".

That tells me power off and a bank angle that will result in a high, but controlled rate of descent. A leisurely 15° bank while the engine is on fire or the passenger need immediate medical attention doesn't cut it for me either.

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LOL........agree.
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That tells me power off and a bank angle that will result in a high, but controlled rate of descent. A leisurely 15° bank while the engine is on fire or the passenger need immediate medical attention doesn't cut it for me either.

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thats the exact feeling i have, and exactly why i originally asked the question. I was watching this student do a steep spiral with maybe 10 degrees of bank and slowly floating down to landing. All i could think about was "what if this kid's engine is on fire, or really needs to get down quick". I mean he did stay over the point and performed it within PTS, but it just didn't seem practical to me.
 
How high was he if he got 3 rotations with only 10 degrees of bank? Most of the time (esp in an Arrow) you have to crank that bank angle if you want to get around 3 times.
 
he and his instructor decided on 4500msl (3600AGL). they found that to be the altitude that would allow 3 rotations and a rollout on downwind at 700AGL. in a no wind condition it worked out well for a power off/180 as long as he rolled out on downwind dropped gear and dumped the flaps.
 
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he and his instructor decided on 4500msl (3600AGL). they found that to be the altitude that would allow 3 rotations and a rollout on downwind at 700AGL. in a no wind condition it worked out well for a power off/180 as long as he rolled out on downwind dropped gear and dumped the flaps.

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That's cool..........pending all their emergencies happen at 3600 AGL.
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