Starting a flight school?
- Thread starter mtnflyer
- Start date
PeterPilot
New Member
One other option you might consider working towards is to become a 135 operator. The complexity of obtaining a 135 certificate increases with more pilots and more aircraft. The most simple 135 certificate is a Single PIC Single Aircraft certificate. That will allow you to advertise air taxi. It will also avoid any "134 and a half" situations where it looks more like 135 than instruction. You can make it even more simple by being a VFR only 135 operator. It is best to have someone familiar with the process help you setup the application.
JustinA
Well-Known Member
Ohhhhhh those katana's sure know how to spin 
I have roughly 150 hours split between the 20 and 40. If I was in your shoes, I would probably just try to get a 40, most DA20's are not IFR certified. So it would be more beneficial for you to buy an airplane that you can teach private/inst/commercial minus the complex time in.
They both are great for training as long as you are not super tall. Easy to learn in.
I have roughly 150 hours split between the 20 and 40. If I was in your shoes, I would probably just try to get a 40, most DA20's are not IFR certified. So it would be more beneficial for you to buy an airplane that you can teach private/inst/commercial minus the complex time in.
They both are great for training as long as you are not super tall. Easy to learn in.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Ohhhhhh those katana's sure know how to spin
I have roughly 150 hours split between the 20 and 40. If I was in your shoes, I would probably just try to get a 40, most DA20's are not IFR certified. So it would be more beneficial for you to buy an airplane that you can teach private/inst/commercial minus the complex time in.
They both are great for training as long as you are not super tall. Easy to learn in.
None of the DA-20's are IFR certified. Many are IFR equipped, and some are even glass panel. I've sat in a G500 equipped DA-20, and I've flown an Aspen PFD equipped DA-20.
I've got a feeling he's looking at a DA-20 because they are somewhat affordable. Start talking DA-40's, and the price goes way up, especially for one that doesn't have the max landing weight issue. A quick glance on the internet lead me to believe you could get a good DA-20C1 for around $100,000, or a good DA-20A1 for probably $50,000. Compare that to a very basically equipped DA-40, and your looking at roughly $150,000, closer to $200,000 if you want a G1000 equipped airplane.
I'd probably look at the DA-20A1 models, just to keep the costs down, if I was actually going to buy the airplane. Cheaper asset cost, is usually going to mean that you can charge less for the actual rental of the plane, which could draw more people into you.
escapepilot
Well-Known Member
Good luck on starting your school. Aircraft choice is one of the most critical decisions you'll have to make. You've got to balance expenses of owning it (maintenance, fuel burn, etc) w/ appeal to students. In my experience, it seems students rarely come back to rent after they get their ticket so your emphasis should be on attracting new students and keeping costs low. A two place aircraft that is comfortable, has low expenses, and has student appeal should be your focus.
Have you considered LSA? Sleek new aircraft, latest in technology, lower investment, lower maintenance, AND when equipped properly, allows you to teach BOTH traditional pilot students and sport pilot students. If I had the capital to do it now, I'd buy an Arion Lightning - fast, efficient, comfortable, and looks that appeal to students.
Have you considered LSA? Sleek new aircraft, latest in technology, lower investment, lower maintenance, AND when equipped properly, allows you to teach BOTH traditional pilot students and sport pilot students. If I had the capital to do it now, I'd buy an Arion Lightning - fast, efficient, comfortable, and looks that appeal to students.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Isnt blackhawk the one who owns his own aircraft and teaching aerbatics. Whoever that is PM me I have a few questions!
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Yeah that. Not only could you do sport and private instruction, there are some LSA's out there that are IFR equipped/approved. So, you could do instrument ratings in the same airplane. Plus, with an LSA your going to have very, very low operating costs, especially if you are willing to run MOGAS. You could even go take the light sport repairman course and do your own maintenance.
Callador
New Member
I like the 172. Here is why:
1. Cheaper. You can get a good one for 30k or so. Again, you don't need to get the newest plane, just one that is in good condition and reliable.
2. Lots of parts.
3. Fits more students. I am a big guy and really the DA-20 is crowded. I also know a lot of other big people looking to fly. Having a small aircraft could limit people. The diamond also doesn't work well for short people either. For example, the Air Force IFS training is normally done in the Diamond out in CO. We do any special training where a person doesn't fit into the diamond but still meets the reqs for the T-6 etc... Recently we did a couple of girls that were too small for the diamond.
4. A durable beast! The 172 has been kicking butt since the 50's, why mess with what works!
There are a lot of good airplanes out there though. This year at the EAA airshow a sat in a nice LSA. It had more room than the diamond and was cost efficient etc..., but still the opening price is around 100k. If I was starting a school, I would want to spend less up front just to get things going. Nothing is worse than spending lots of money up front when you don't have established clients/students.
Callador
New Member
One more thing. I thought about getting a plane to do instruction too. I would honestly get a 172, but I also thought about getting a C-170 or C-180. That would help with the niche tail wheel market/checkouts and the 170 has a similar operating cost to a 172. I have never flown a 170, looks a little crowded ( I know, that is my thing), but I have time in a C-185, lots of fun... and these would cheaper alternatives to the 300hp bad boy.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
I would also agree on the thought of an LSA. There seems to be fair demand for the sport pilot certificate and as already pointed out, if properly equipped, you could do other training in it as well.
No one has mentioned it yet, but have you considered one of the many Piper products out there? You can pick them up considerably cheaper that the Cessna counterparts and operating costs of the two are very similar.
Blackhawk does indeed have his own "school". His website is samdawsoncfi.com
No one has mentioned it yet, but have you considered one of the many Piper products out there? You can pick them up considerably cheaper that the Cessna counterparts and operating costs of the two are very similar.
Blackhawk does indeed have his own "school". His website is samdawsoncfi.com
swisspilot
Well-Known Member
If you don't have your own MX stay away from the DA20. I can't imagine be a CFI and fly all day long in a DA....The flight school at my home airport always had PA28s now they have DA40 and DA42, the school got a lot more expensive to run, they went DA just for marketing!
I would get a supercub....
I would get a supercub....
swisspilot
Well-Known Member
You can file IFR? if the plane is not IFR certified? do you put "keep me clear of clouds in the remarks"?
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
FAAO 8700.1 Ch. 8
9. USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.
A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.
B. Type Certificate Data. Appropriate type certificate data will indicate whether the aircraft meets the requirements for IFR operations.
(1) Section 91.9(a)prohibits aircraft operations without compliance with the operating limitations for that aircraft prescribed by the certificating authority.
(2) Section 91.9(b)prohibits operation of a U.S.-registered aircraft requiring an airplane or rotorcraft flight manual unless it has on board a current and approved airplane or rotorcraft flight manual or approved manual material, markings, and placards containing each operating limitation prescribed for that aircraft.
So yeah, no IMC is allowed with the DA-20.
That said, based upon the OP's logic in buying either a DA20-A1 or older C172, I don't think that an LSA which is IFR approved/equipped is anywhere near the same price range. The Tecnam P2002 Sierra, the low wing model, which I've seen flown IFR, is probably going to push 140-150K by the time you get it set up for IFR, so that is probably going to cost way to much. I don't think you can find an S-LSA out there, even used, at this point for under 70,000.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
I like your style. Really though, if you are trying to keep the budget down, its probably best to go with a common airplane, that is cheap to buy. That's basically going to be a 172 or PA28. Easy to find parts for, easy to find someone to turn a wrench on, and easy to find one for sale in the condition you want them in.
So operating under part 61. I've been looking under 61 and 91 to find special requirements for maintenance an airplane operated by a flight school. I am trying to find where it states I need the 100hr. The annual is easy, but what part has the maint required for an airplane operated by the flight school.
Is it 141 that has these? Or insurance?
Thanks
Is it 141 that has these? Or insurance?
Thanks
escapepilot
Well-Known Member
91.409
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. The 100-hour limitation may be exceeded by not more than 10 hours while en route to reach a place where the inspection can be done. The excess time used to reach a place where the inspection can be done must be included in computing the next 100 hours of time in service.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. The 100-hour limitation may be exceeded by not more than 10 hours while en route to reach a place where the inspection can be done. The excess time used to reach a place where the inspection can be done must be included in computing the next 100 hours of time in service.