Starting a flight school?

[mtnflyer]

Just kicking around an idea of starting a flight school to operate under part 61. Besides the llc. Are there any filings that I am missing in the FARs or do I need to file any docs with the fsdo? I think I know the answers, but I want to make sure.
And I've instructed a lot in a 172. Has anyone had the exp in a da20 katana? Buying one or the other. Anyone able to give me the pros and cons of the katana

 

[shdw]

Just kicking around an idea of starting a flight school to operate under part 61. Besides the llc. Are there any filings that I am missing in the FARs or do I need to file any docs with the fsdo? I think I know the answers, but I want to make sure.
And I've instructed a lot in a 172. Has anyone had the exp in a da20 katana? Buying one or the other. Anyone able to give me the pros and cons of the katana

Take a look at liberty aviation also. They have a nice 2 seater that may be a nice option. Unfortunately nothing with a turbo yet, but FADE with 5 gph fuel burn and only 2 seats means less insurance and less gas cost.

 

[PeterPilot]

No. There are no filings or such that are required by the FAA.

You might want to talk with your local FSDO and explain your situation to them and tell them that although you are not a 141 school that you welcome any advice or assistance they might provide. It never hurts to keep things on a positive note.

As time goes on, you definitely should explore the possibility of becoming a 141 school.

 

[tjvpa28]

Just kicking around an idea of starting a flight school to operate under part 61.

Awesome, can I have a job?

 

[shdw]

As time goes on, you definitely should explore the possibility of becoming a 141 school.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the benefit to being a 141 school? It would seem that it would just mean more scrutinizing from the FAA, likely increasing overhead, with little gain in student pool. Unless he has a lot of competition to compete with, that doesn't seem so likely in Colorado.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Just kicking around an idea of starting a flight school to operate under part 61. Besides the llc. Are there any filings that I am missing in the FARs or do I need to file any docs with the fsdo? I think I know the answers, but I want to make sure.
And I've instructed a lot in a 172. Has anyone had the exp in a da20 katana? Buying one or the other. Anyone able to give me the pros and cons of the katana

DA-20's are nice. Horribly uncomfortable, but fun to fly. They fly fairly fast, on not a lot of fuel. Some tend to be maintenance hogs. Never had any issues with them, other than the owner wanting to set idle RPM way too low. Just an engine failure in the flare due to that. Some are starting/have had a wing lamination issue, which has been AD'd, I believe. Which model are you looking at, the A1 Rotax powered machine, or the C1 Continental l powered machine. Some big differences in them, namely a constant speed prop in the A1 model.

What kind of training are you looking at doing? Private, Private + Instrument, Commercial, or what? Perhaps, if you are just looking at private instruction, you could pick up one of the many S-LSA's out there. They'll carry the same load as a DA-20 will, and be a heck of a lot more comfortable. Not as fast, but probably quiet a bit cheaper.

 

[sog]

I logged about 40 hours in the DA-20 (and about 15 in the DA-40), and I never had any comfort issues in either. I loved adjusting pedals rather than adjusting the seat, although the one short coming was that, as a very tall guy, if I had a big headset on it sometimes brushed the canopy. But I'd take a DA-20 over a C-152 or 80's-era C-172 any day of the week, for VFR at least.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

As time goes on, you definitely should explore the possibility of becoming a 141 school.

:whatever:

 

[Mike H]

Anyone able to give me the pros and cons of the katana

FUN to fly, although underpowered at the typical density altitudes we get in our area. I don't find them terribly uncomfortable. I DO find them to be a PITA to handle on the ground. With the free castering nosewheel, taxiing in & out of the parking area is a bizzach! It'll make tight turns, but you need a high power setting to do it. In contrast, the DA40 is much easier to taxi even though it has the same free castering nosewheel.

The control stick is completely intuitive.

 

[awf]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the benefit to being a 141 school? It would seem that it would just mean more scrutinizing from the FAA, likely increasing overhead, with little gain in student pool. Unless he has a lot of competition to compete with, that doesn't seem so likely in Colorado.

I know my flight school gets a lot of their contracts because they are the only 141 school in the area and often the only bidders on the contracts as a result.

 

[Douglas]

There really is nothing to do for a 61 flight school. I would also say you should be working towards 141, if possible.

As for the DA-20s and 40s. Both are amazingly uncomfortable.

Sit in a brand new cessna then sit in a brand new DA, and you can tell which model has been around half a century.

I can spend about 1.3 in a DA40 before I start wanting to head in.

Sunglasses required.
For some reason the 40 didn't want to start on mornings in the winter. For an aircraft made in canada...odd. But it does look good, fly well and fast.

 

[PeterPilot]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the benefit to being a 141 school? It would seem that it would just mean more scrutinizing from the FAA, likely increasing overhead, with little gain in student pool. Unless he has a lot of competition to compete with, that doesn't seem so likely in Colorado.

There are various sources of money that require the student to take their training at a 141 school. The G.I. Bill (the VA) is one. Some states provide funding for training. So, if you are only a Part 61 school, you miss many potential students. Also, these students are steady students who tend to start at the beginning and follow through to completion. You can also affiliate with local colleges and give college credit for completion of your courses. That attracts additional students.

Conceivably it could lower your insurance premium because your carrier knows you are complying with a standard and being subjected to regular checks. Heaven forbid, but if you find yourself in court on the receiving end of a liability lawsuit, it would be to your advantage to be able to explain that you subscribe to and comply with the standards established by the FAA.

The down side is that you will have to dedicate a certain amount of time to record keeping and administration that you would not otherwise have to do. You also will have to expend a little money by having your chief flight instructor (and assistant chief if you later add one) will have to do a check ride with the FAA. The chief will also have to attend a FIRC on an annual basis.

It will take a while to spin up a 141 school, but it is something you can work towards as time and talent allows.

I almost forgot ... the thing most people talk about when they discuss 141 school advantages is the reduction in flight time. That can be a marketing draw for students. However, it seems to me that the other allowances are of more value than the time reductions. For example, if you have two good airports that are 98 NM apart instead of 100 NM, you can get approval to use that in lieu of the normal 100 NM night cross country. The specifics are situational.

 

[tjvpa28]

As for the DA-20s and 40s. Both are amazingly uncomfortable.
Sit in a brand new cessna then sit in a brand new DA, and you can tell which model has been around half a century. I can spend about 1.3 in a DA40 before I start wanting to head in.

Well, it all depends on the individual. It's not for everyone, but I have about 60 hours in a DA40, have taken it on long xc's and felt like I could fall asleep. But then again I am only 5'5, so most people would probably prefer the Cessna.

Sunglasses required.

Definitely!

 

[Douglas]

Well, it all depends on the individual. It's not for everyone, but I have about 60 hours in a DA40, have taken it on long xc's and felt like I could fall asleep. But then again I am only 5'5, so most people would probably prefer the Cessna.

touché

I'm 6'5, with my shins cutting into the sharp bottom edge of the panel and my headset touching the canopy vibrating my brain.
If it didn't have an excellent view, I'd only last an hour, max.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Well, it all depends on the individual. It's not for everyone, but I have about 60 hours in a DA40, have taken it on long xc's and felt like I could fall asleep. But then again I am only 5'5, so most people would probably prefer the Cessna.

Definitely!

I'm 6'1", and after 9 hours of solo in one day in a DA-40, I wanted to never sit in the thing again. The DA-40 seems almost worse than the DA-20, in my opinion. Both are difficult to learn to taxi, but easy once you figure it out.

 

[tjvpa28]

touché

I'm 6'5, with my shins cutting into the sharp bottom edge of the panel and my headset touching the canopy vibrating my brain.
If it didn't have an excellent view, I'd only last an hour, max.

They must be some little folks up there in Canada! :laff:

 

[tjvpa28]

Both are difficult to learn to taxi, but easy once you figure it out.

Agreed, the first time I got in it I thought I was going to go in the grass.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Agreed, the first time I got in it I thought I was going to go in the grass.

But, after having spent so much time in a DA-20/40, it was a breeze to taxi a Champ. Not sure why, but it seemed a lot like the Diamonds.

 

[Maurus]

Has anyone had the exp in a da20 katana? Buying one or the other. Anyone able to give me the pros and cons of the katana

They are fun little aircraft and are one of the most popular aircraft at my school. More than the 172's.

If you plan on doing instrument instruction I would recomend a cessna instead. The DA-20 is not certified for instruments. You can train for instruments and file flight plans, but you can not enter IMC. That would effectively shut down your flight school whenever their field is IFR.

 

[Callador]

touché

I'm 6'5, with my shins cutting into the sharp bottom edge of the panel and my headset touching the canopy vibrating my brain.
If it didn't have an excellent view, I'd only last an hour, max.

Same here, 6'5" and I am on the bulky side as well. That thing is tight. I have problems with lots of airplanes though, mainly in that the yoke hits my legs.

As for the 141 vs 61, 141 has its advantages, but there is a lot of red tape too. Like someone else said, you get contracts just for being the only 141 in the area. There are also some companies that are more willing to give loans to 142 students over 61.

The other advantage is flight time (if you are starting at zero). So 35 hrs for the private instead of 40, with only needing 5 hrs solo and 1 solo XR (no range criteria). 61 requires 10 hrs solo and the long solo x/c. Not a big difference on this one, but if you have a lot of bad weather days, not having as much solo is nice.

Instrument is a big difference though. 141 only requires 35 hours instrument, and you don't have to meet the 50 hour PIC x/c like you do in 61.

The commercial is also only 120 hours added to the total. So if you finished the private in 35, and the instrument in 35 (makes 70), you can get the commercial in 190 instead of 250. Again, this only helps if you have low flight time. If you have 150 hours and do the commercial 141, it is still a 120 hour course, so it would make more sense to do it 61.

I work for a small 141 and the FAA does come out a lot to inspect. You have to make sure everything is in order, or they will get on you about it. As a chief and assistant chief, they will want to do your checkrides too.

Hope this helps. For doing a small business as a hobby, 61 is probably the best.