Start time protections

averettpilot

averettpilot

Well-Known Member
I’m at my first airline as a DEC after 17 years of 91/135.

It appears at least here there are no protections throughout a trip or RAP for start times. I’m normally on a 1300 short call reserve schedule which means I do a lot of late flying which is fine so long as it stays consistent.

I have, however, been given assignments the start in the evening, but then eventually wind up with min rest and all of a sudden have early shows. For example, I was called off hot reserve at 20:00 and didn’t get to a hotel until 0300. This was followed by an afternoon show, and then the very next day was an 0450 van time. Within 26 hours I went from going to bed at 3am to reporting at 5am. I’ve gotten pretty efficient with operating on the sleep I get after all the years of round the clock on demand flying, but this kind of schedule has been fatiguing at times.

I’m curious if other airlines have some kind of protections in place, or their fatigue policy is proactive rather than reactive as it seems it is here?
 
common narrowbody trip, sucks and one of the reasons i’m not going back to reserve anytime soon. union has say in what pairings might be fatiguing during construction but actual operation is a different story

press F if you’re actually fatigued though, union also tracks fatigue calls related to pairing and will use it as feedback for construction
 
averettpilot said:
I’m at my first airline as a DEC after 17 years of 91/135.

It appears at least here there are no protections throughout a trip or RAP for start times. I’m normally on a 1300 short call reserve schedule which means I do a lot of late flying which is fine so long as it stays consistent.

I have, however, been given assignments the start in the evening, but then eventually wind up with min rest and all of a sudden have early shows. For example, I was called off hot reserve at 20:00 and didn’t get to a hotel until 0300. This was followed by an afternoon show, and then the very next day was an 0450 van time. Within 26 hours I went from going to bed at 3am to reporting at 5am. I’ve gotten pretty efficient with operating on the sleep I get after all the years of round the clock on demand flying, but this kind of schedule has been fatiguing at times.

I’m curious if other airlines have some kind of protections in place, or their fatigue policy is proactive rather than reactive as it seems it is here?
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I've worked at 3 airlines in the last 12 months and there's always at least a little garbage like this sprinkled in.
 
Just kind of part and parcel at pretty much every airline, unfortunately. If you're a DEC I'm assuming you're pretty junior, and you're also on reserve. Assuming these aren't cobbled together trips or last minute assignments, you're getting the trips that were in open time or people called out sick for because they suck and nobody else wanted them.
Within 26 hours I went from going to bed at 3am to reporting at 5am.
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This is relatively common at legacies. Redeye out east, 24 hour layover, swap to a 5am van time, so you're essentially going to bed twice in the same day. Absolute suckage and there's a reason it's always in open time/going to reserves. I hate to say the only real advice is try being more senior, but...
 
JordanD said:
Just kind of part and parcel at pretty much every airline, unfortunately. If you're a DEC I'm assuming you're pretty junior, and you're also on reserve. Assuming these aren't cobbled together trips or last minute assignments, you're getting the trips that were in open time or people called out sick for because they suck and nobody else wanted them.

This is relatively common at legacies. Redeye out east, 24 hour layover, swap to a 5am van time, so you're essentially going to bed twice in the same day. Absolute suckage and there's a reason it's always in open time/going to reserves. I hate to say the only real advice is try being more senior, but...
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We do short backs at Eskimo and I actually prefer them. Redeye out, day sleep, evening flight back. 2 duty periods in 24ish hours but better than trying to flop sleep schedules. Granted I've only had to do them sporadically. A whole month of them would wreck me I think but a lot of people love them.
 
BobDDuck said:
You must be fit to fly to start your flight. And you must think that you will remain fit to fly for the remainder of the flight as published. No need for a contractual protection. Just need good fatigue rules.
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averettpilot said:
I’m at my first airline as a DEC after 17 years of 91/135. It appears at least here there are no protections throughout a trip or RAP for start times. I’m normally on a 1300 short call reserve schedule which means I do a lot of late flying which is fine so long as it stays consistent. I have, however, been given assignments the start in the evening, but then eventually wind up with min rest and all of a sudden have early shows. For example, I was called off hot reserve at 20:00 and didn’t get to a hotel until 0300. This was followed by an afternoon show, and then the very next day was an 0450 van time. Within 26 hours I went from going to bed at 3am to reporting at 5am. I’ve gotten pretty efficient with operating on the sleep I get after all the years of round the clock on demand flying, but this kind of schedule has been fatiguing at times. I’m curious if other airlines have some kind of protections in place, or their fatigue policy is proactive rather than reactive as it seems it is here?
Click to expand...

Honestly? Welcome to the airlines. And as a DEC, get used to it.
 
word302 said:
We do short backs at Eskimo and I actually prefer them. Redeye out, day sleep, evening flight back. 2 duty periods in 24ish hours but better than trying to flop sleep schedules. Granted I've only had to do them sporadically. A whole month of them would wreck me I think but a lot of people love them.
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I’m about to start my 3rd one in a row. But, after tomorrow night I’m off the rest of the month.
 
JordanD said:
This is relatively common at legacies. Redeye out east, 24 hour layover, swap to a 5am van time, so you're essentially going to bed twice in the same day. Absolute suckage and there's a reason it's always in open time/going to reserves. I hate to say the only real advice is try being more senior, but...
Click to expand...

This is most of international operations that start westbound as well. Depart mid day and get in super late domicile time. 26 hours later get back in the plane and fly 8 to 15 hours. Granted, being augmented helps a bit so you can get a nap in, but that's the life in general. You get good at getting your 8 hours of sleep in 3 or 4 different blocks.
 
Even if you don't call in fatigued, FILE A FATIGUE REPORT with your bargaining agent! Data, data, DATA!!

You never have to be fatigued to file a report if you feel it's a bad trip.

I had one last month with 3 circadian flips and 3 24-hour layovers (which suck in the night cargo world), including an 0200-0200 layover...so no good opportunity to get 2 sleeps. Oh and approximately 40 minutes to grab a nap in IND before turning to the west coast. Filed several reports on that one.
 
word302 said:
We do short backs at Eskimo and I actually prefer them. Redeye out, day sleep, evening flight back. 2 duty periods in 24ish hours but better than trying to flop sleep schedules. Granted I've only had to do them sporadically. A whole month of them would wreck me I think but a lot of people love them.
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The SEA-ORD one is great. Park the car at 9 pm or so, land there at IIRC 0200-0300 west coast time, sleep, fly home and back at car around 8:30 or 9 pm the next day for 2 days of pay. Back home about 28 hours after I left. I did several of them one month when we were still doing line bidding. A guy from my class religiously bids for them, and makes me swear to not steal them from him when providing me PBS tips (because I am like one or two seniority numbers ahead of him). Don't worry, I am a man of my words, and leave them to him. But it is certainly one man's treasure.
 
BobDDuck said:
This is most of international operations that start westbound as well. Depart mid day and get in super late domicile time. 26 hours later get back in the plane and fly 8 to 15 hours. Granted, being augmented helps a bit so you can get a nap in, but that's the life in general. You get good at getting your 8 hours of sleep in 3 or 4 different blocks.
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1723789479853.png


We do this too "domestically" - fly somewhere, 22-24ish off, fly back - maybe it's a red eye, maybe a early as heck show. I think that everyone does them... Somehow I'm supposed to "sleep twice" in a rest period that's built as either a 'early as heck wakeup body clock time" or right before a red eye when I should be going to bed. Either way, we aren't built to be sleeping twice in a 24 hour "rest period."

15-17 hours or 32-34 hours... keep me on the same circadian cycle and I can go forever. Especially if I'm doing a little later shift each day and am not reliant on an alarm clock for my wakeup.

The only way that these kinds of trips actually pass real fatigue modeling/science scores was because they walked a printout of them past the guidelines. (or commuters put up with them because of late shows/early finishes)

Anyhoo, to the OP - hopefully your airline has a non-punitive fatigue program.

///AMG said:
The SEA-ORD one is great. Park the car at 9 pm or so, land there at IIRC 0200-0300 west coast time, sleep, fly home and back at car around 8:30 or 9 pm the next day for 2 days of pay. Back home about 28 hours after I left. I did several of them one month when we were still doing line bidding. A guy from my class religiously bids for them, and makes me swear to not steal them from him when providing me PBS tips (because I am like one or two seniority numbers ahead of him). Don't worry, I am a man of my words, and leave them to him. But it is certainly one man's treasure.
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I would do this for the rest of my career. Just let me get in before the sun comes up on a pink-eye and give me a room that is cold/dark/quiet for my "day sleep." I used to be able to hold early bank red-eyes to the east coast and other than the LA traffic they were a dream. The only thing that would kill me is the constant flow of pizza, hot dogs, and dipped beef sandwiches in ORD.
 
ClearedForOption said:
View attachment 79250

We do this too "domestically" - fly somewhere, 22-24ish off, fly back - maybe it's a red eye, maybe a early as heck show. I think that everyone does them... Somehow I'm supposed to "sleep twice" in a rest period that's built as either a 'early as heck wakeup body clock time" or right before a red eye when I should be going to bed. Either way, we aren't built to be sleeping twice in a 24 hour "rest period."

15-17 hours or 32-34 hours... keep me on the same circadian cycle and I can go forever. Especially if I'm doing a little later shift each day and am not reliant on an alarm clock for my wakeup.

The only way that these kinds of trips actually pass real fatigue modeling/science scores was because they walked a printout of them past the guidelines. (or commuters put up with them because of late shows/early finishes)

Anyhoo, to the OP - hopefully your airline has a non-punitive fatigue program.



I would do this for the rest of my career. Just let me get in before the sun comes up on a pink-eye and give me a room that is cold/dark/quiet for my "day sleep." I used to be able to hold early bank red-eyes to the east coast and other than the LA traffic they were a dream. The only thing that would kill me is the constant flow of pizza, hot dogs, and dipped beef sandwiches in ORD.
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The 24 hour overnights made me cranky. Luckily I don't have many of those anymore.
 
ClearedForOption said:
I would do this for the rest of my career. Just let me get in before the sun comes up on a pink-eye and give me a room that is cold/dark/quiet for my "day sleep." I used to be able to hold early bank red-eyes to the east coast and other than the LA traffic they were a dream. The only thing that would kill me is the constant flow of pizza, hot dogs, and dipped beef sandwiches in ORD.
Click to expand...

Yeah, beauty of this one is that you get to the hotel well before it is really light out, rather than it being full daylight at the beginning of the STAR into JFK/BOS/whatever. And its like a 3.5 hr flight rather than 5+. Best part is ORD is quiet AF when you arrive, and isn't normally too insane when you leave.
 
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