contactground.9
Banned
Loved steep turns, but mine were usually better turning to the low side. Don't know why..
Stalls
- Thread starter amjon
- Start date
splash
your social justice comic center
Hitting your own wake turbulence in a steep turn is a very rewarding feeling!
The trick to steep turns: As you start your role to * of bank keep the dot on the attitude indicator on the horizon line. After getting to * of bank with dot on horizon line look outside to see where the true horizon meets the nose AND KEEP IT THERE...
The first time I hit my own wake was with my instructor I felt like a super pilot because he never did it and only heard about it. This was the first I heard about it. I was ready to do barrel roles next.
The trick to steep turns: As you start your role to * of bank keep the dot on the attitude indicator on the horizon line. After getting to * of bank with dot on horizon line look outside to see where the true horizon meets the nose AND KEEP IT THERE...
The first time I hit my own wake was with my instructor I felt like a super pilot because he never did it and only heard about it. This was the first I heard about it. I was ready to do barrel roles next.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I almost had to do a barrel roll once while hitting wake in a steep turn. Would have been easier then righting myself the other way. Close but not close enough to justify it.
In a skyhawk you trim the airplane for S&L at 2100 RPM's. That will give you S&L below Va which is about 90kts. As you role into the turn you increase control pressure pump up the RPM's to 2300 RPM's and then add in two full trim wheel's. Bank for 45-50 degree's and the airplane will fly itself. Just remember to really push on the yoke on the recover or you will ballon like crazy. Fly teh number's ladies and gentlemen.
escapepilot
Well-Known Member
Whenever I run across a student that has a fear of a particular maneuver, I try to get to cause of the fear by discussing it on the ground first. What is it about steep turns that bothers you? Once you understand what causes the fear, then you and your instructor can determine how to deal with it best. Sometimes a better understanding of aerodynamics will help, sometimes its just going out and facing your fear. Whatever it is, once you and your instructor understand your fear, you can then begin to conquer it.
beasly
Well-Known Member
That's the mark of a good instructor. well done.
For the particular case of fear of stalls, I have found that taking baby steps towards the stall really helps. Just start with bringing it to the horn and recovering correctly to Vx and then Vy as appropriate. With reps, the student is comfortable with most of the elements of the stall recovery. Then bring it to the buffet (we are teaching stall recognition and recovery, so this is not a waste of time) and a few more reps. and then the full stall is just another step in the lesson--and by that time the student has confidence.
Another very good cofidence builder is to 'falling leaf' stall where I maintain the stall and have the student keep the wings level with rudder. Then when they have the feel for the rudder, inputs have them stall it and recover just by lowering the nose. Start at about 6000 ft and falling leaf down to a thousand doing this and by that time the light bulb and confidence really goes up.
Cordially,
b.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Something that really helped me while as a private student, was doing a falling leaf stall series. Everyone at first doesn't understand what a stall is. By sitting in a falling leaf for a while, you can see that the plane is still under control in the stall.
beasly
Well-Known Member
That's a great point.
Another great topic during the falling leaf is a "real time" discussion of the Center Of Pressure. You can "feel" the concept as it bobs forward and aft.
b.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
You will never fly banners for a living.(I don't think I will ever LIKE them though.) I'm so glad my instructor is willing to put up with me.Is anyone else freaked out by steep turns?
Steep turns are 200' were the norm for me when I was a rag dragger (our patterns were down low and in tight). The thing that made them easy was the fact that what you're at 200' you're so close to the ground that you notice any change in alt right away. Honestly, these days, if I have to do steep turns at 3000' I find it much more difficult than 200' because its so much more difficutlt to sense when you're gaining or losing alt. The G's of steep turns become normal after a while. Just keep doing them until they don't bother you anymore. Practice practice practice.StrykerINF
Well-Known Member
I agree.. I'll admit even through my commercial days I was still apprehensive about stalls. It was the fear of the "unknown" even though I've done them many times before. Best course of action is have a CFI go up with you and do spins. When you realize how easy spins are to recover from, stalls won't matter anymore (while you're at it, get your spin endorsement). Once you see how EASY spin recovery is, it won't matter anymore.. same goes for steep turns. Best of luck with all the flight training
Any chance your right turn (high side) always started in a climb and left you chasing it from then on?
beasly said:
I have been playing with this idea since reading your post a few days ago and can't quite figure out how you would use this to really explain that. Would you mind shinning some light on it for me? Thanks.
tgrayson
New Member
The bobbing up and down at the stall is more likely a symptom of the turbulent airflow on the horizontal stabilizer, rather than a movement of the CP. But the CP of a wing does move rearward at the stall, producing a nose down pitching moment of its own. Note that the CP is a mathematical fiction, just like the CG, not something that exists in any measurable sense; rather, it's a calculated number. It's a location that if you pinned an airplane to a sky-sized bulletin board through the CP, it would experience no tendency to rotate due to any aerodynamic force. In this sense as well, it's the aerodynamic equivalent of the CG.
Just like the CG depends on the location of the physical weights of the airplane components, the location of the CP depends on the location of the aerodynamic forces on the airplane. When the aerodynamic forces change, the location of the CP changes. That's why I don't find it very enlightening to ascribe a change in aerodynamic behavior to the movement of the CP, since the CP is defined by the aerodynamic behavior. It's like saying, "The nose pitches down because there is a net nose down pitching moment." All cambered airfoils experience a nose down pitching moment which increases past the stalling AoA, although planform behavior may overshadow airfoil tendencies.
Tgray: Okay, but how do you link that to the falling leaf demo is what I don't understand. I mean isn't the bobbing just what you said, turbulent air and the wing falling in and out of stall. Sure the CP is moving during the falling leaf but can you really use this demo to explain CP movement?
Edit: Forgot to ask, AOA up = CP back and vice versa with AOA down correct?
Edit: Forgot to ask, AOA up = CP back and vice versa with AOA down correct?
tgrayson
New Member
As long as the behavior is consistent with the theory, you can use it to demonstrate the theory, regardless of whether that's really what's going on. The bobbing up and down is consistent with an airfoil stalling and unstalling, evening ignoring the effect on the horizontal stabilizer. How does the Seminole behave? The T-tail should minimize the turbulent flow on the horizontal stabilizer.
In the unstalled regime, AoA up means CP forward. At the stall, it moves back again. Interestingly, at low AoAs, the CP might not even be on the wing, but rather behind it. How much intuitive sense does that make?
saria19
Well-Known Member
Excellent advice, but what about people that that just doesn't work on? This can work in the way an irrational fear does (aka: you know there are no monsters in the dark but you are scared anyway).
splash
your social justice comic center
I follow it. Take the whole airframe and view it as a whole lifting body not just the wing. To the extreme case of airframe design take a look at the Shorts sc-7 Skyvan.
The fuselage is a massive wing itself. Flew one of these in AK and what a funny looking bird.
This is also similar to adding floats on most airplanes. The floats actually provide some lift which is why most float equipped planes have an increase in max gross weight over the land plane versions of the same aircraft.
escapepilot
Well-Known Member
There are several good suggestions in this thread. Sometimes confronting the fear works. Sometimes, it just takes time. And then sometimes, they just can't get past the fear.
beasly
Well-Known Member
Sure, and you have taught me something by asking that question. thanks.
The nose bobs up and down--quite periodic. You can feel it.
The reason the nose bobs up and down is that the center of pressure is changing for and aft. COP forward, nose up, COP aft, nose down.
Its not much in a cherokee or 172, but from 6K to 1K its a nice chance to correlate aerodynamics with the physical act of flying the machine--the students dig it too--you really see the light bulb go off in their eyes.
What you have taught me is that I cannot explain it visually to my students per the horizon and the cowling--I need to correct that in my training.
That said, the aircraft is in a buffet at all times and it wobbles fore and aft like one of those child rides in front of grocery stores and wallmart.
Cordially,
b.