Stall strips

If it were installed at the root, there would be no discussion from me

I think you're making a false distinction here, like saying you haven't fallen until you hit the ground and the slip on the patch of ice is unrelated :). Any buffet produced by a stall strip is an incipient stall, the turbulence being caused by airflow separation and reattachment. And where the buffet occurs is likely where the full stall will occur. If the strips were located at the root, they would also likley produce a buffet, because the turbulent airflow impinges on the horizontal stabilizer, just like what happens with the Hershey bar wing.

So the real question isn't whether the strips cause a buffet or a stall, since it's the same thing, but why the designers chose the location they did. Your notion that the location was chosen purely due to enhanced buffets seems to be based on the unwarranted certainty that your wing already stalls at the root. You don't know that. The tapered outer portion tends to stall at the wing tip, and, as we discussed, washout can't always compensate for that. Moreover, these problems are often discovered late in the product development cycle when large changes to the aircraft design are very expensive. Stall strips are one of a variety of inexpensive "aerodynamic fixes" that can be applied during production flight testing. Since stalling at mid-wing is better than a wing-tip stall, its location is perfectly compatible with correcting stall behavior, just as it's compatible with an enhanced buffet. These two issues are probably intertwined, since any wing that stalls at the root most likely doesn't need any buffeting enhancement, due to the reason given above.

But this still leaves the main question unanswered: given that root stalls produce good buffeting and good stall behavior, and a mid-wing location can produce good buffeting and stall behavior, why did the designers choose one over the other? We don't have enough information to know. The section I quoted from the flight testing book should have conveyed that the location of these strips is a highly empirical one; they place them where they work. There might be some airflow characteristics of this airplane that made the root an unsuitable location, perhaps, for instance, due to the propeller slipstream. I've read of too many strange flight test problems to think that I can predict why any particular airplane is designed the way it is. At best, I can discuss broad design goals and how certain features typically affect them, but every airplane has its own issues.
 
The tapered outer portion tends to stall at the wing tip

This has to do with the fact that the leading edge of the wing is not exactly perpendicular to the oncoming air, correct?

But this still leaves the main question unanswered: given that root stalls produce good buffeting and good stall behavior, and a mid-wing location can produce good buffeting and stall behavior, why did the designers choose one over the other? We don't have enough information to know. The section I quoted from the flight testing book should have conveyed that the location of these strips is a highly empirical one; they place them where they work. There might be some airflow characteristics of this airplane that made the root an unsuitable location, perhaps, for instance, due to the propeller slipstream.

Crazy theory: the Warriors I flew had an anti-slip strip that ran the length of the right wing right next to the fuselage, since that's where the door is. You have to figure that would mess with the aerodynamics a bit due to the rougher surface, so maybe the stall strip had to be placed further outboard to compensate or to avoid messing things up TOO much - the strip on the left wing got moved in order to keep things even. The little fillet at the root might have something to do with it as well.

It's been too long since I've flown a Piper product, so I'll have to take a look at a few next time I'm at the airport and see what's up.
 
This has to do with the fact that the leading edge of the wing is not exactly perpendicular to the oncoming air, correct?

Generally the stall pattern on a straight (more or less) wing has to do with the behavior of the tip vortices; on a tapered wingtip, the vortices create a locally higher AoA just inboard of the wingtip.
 
I feel like it was hammered into my teaching as a student about how the tapered/semi tapered/rectangular wings always stall at the root and progress outward; How the elliptical wing stalled at the wing tips and progressed inward. I guess my notions were self directed from this 'teaching' I received.

Perhaps the design was flawed and the manufacturer decided that placing the stall strips where they are placed was the best benefit. I can honestly say I don't know anymore.

It was always my opinion that the wing created the stall progression and the stall strip just provided extra indication of the stall. I can agree that if the stall strip creates the airflow separation, the stall will progress locally and expand. However that doesn't seem to make sense for control, to have the wing stall mid wing.

What it comes down to, is regardless of where the stall strip is located, it will create the stall from that point. I still would like to see people stop teaching that all stall strips produce stalls at wing roots.

Can we at least agree on that? :)
 
still would like to see people stop teaching that all stall strips produce stalls at wing roots. Can we at least agree on that?

Absolutely. I don't think that anyone really meant that. Those of us who said it did so because that's where the strips are usually located. I think everyone realizes that the strips will tend to cause a stall wherever they are located.
 
Well I guess that was really my main beef with the teaching our school had been doing. However I didn't really get that in depth into the stall strips role in the stalling pattern of the wing. Now I know; and knowing is half the battle. :)
 
knowing is half the battle.

Yo, Joe!

Here's a chart of the various stalling patterns. Doesn't show a semi-tapered and I can't find a diagram of one.

StallProgression.png
 
Poor mans vortex generators. :dunno:
In a manner of speaking, yes.

During flight testing for the LR31 tufts of yarn were attached to the wings. When the tufts were removed, pilots stated that the plane flew worse. It was decided that the wing was "too clean." The simple fix was to remove every other flush screw in the leading edge, and replace them with round heads. The plane flew better as it did with the tufts attached. Go figure.

The story was related in Flying Magazine back in the '80s when the 31 came out.
 
My problem is a lot of people teach that it creates the stall at the root instead of the tip, when the stall strip is installed centered in the middle of the wing. Trying to provide a reference for credibility.


I always thought they were positioned on the wing either directly in front of the aileron (or maybe off to the side a bit), so that there would be no separation directly over the control surface.
 
So what you guys are saying is that theyre not there to just help pick up ice? whwouldathunk... haha :sarcasm:

great info in here, never though that much about them.
 
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