Blue Side Up
Well-Known Member
Anybody had Kyle Tucker for a stage(any tips)? I have him for my 325 103.
Stage Pilot
- Thread starter Blue Side Up
- Start date
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
BlueSide
I see, and have heard, this kind of quesion(s) a lot. There is no mystery to what the stage pilot is going to ask you. Everything they will ask you is in the PTS and the Stage Check manual, which you can get a copy of just ask BFRA for one. You guys are psycing yourselves right out of the checkride by trying to find out any "tricks" the stage pilot may have. Go one or two steps higher and know as much as you possibly can and cover all of your bases, instead of trying to "study" for a particular stage pilot.
Good luck on your 103, TUCK is a good, fair guy, just know your stuff and you will be fine.
I see, and have heard, this kind of quesion(s) a lot. There is no mystery to what the stage pilot is going to ask you. Everything they will ask you is in the PTS and the Stage Check manual, which you can get a copy of just ask BFRA for one. You guys are psycing yourselves right out of the checkride by trying to find out any "tricks" the stage pilot may have. Go one or two steps higher and know as much as you possibly can and cover all of your bases, instead of trying to "study" for a particular stage pilot.
Good luck on your 103, TUCK is a good, fair guy, just know your stuff and you will be fine.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Much like the stage pilot I recently had "followed PTS and the Stage Check manual'?Dugie8 said:
I disagree, but to some extent. No PTS or Stage Check manual is set in stone - stages checks are highly subjective and depend on the stage pilot. One student may pass with one stage pilot while that same student with the same knowledge may not pass with another stage pilot. This is why we ask if "one stage pilot" is fair or not. Until they get it right and ask all students the same exact questions, all stage checks will be highly susceptible to unfairness.
There's no way in refuting the above - just take a look at my Stage 46 experience I posted last Friday for a prime example of unfairness (even though I passed the stage).
***runs for cover from Dugie's light saber***
Blue Side Up
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat: I totally agree.
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
hahaha yeah that...JaceTheAce said:***runs for cover from Dugie's light saber***
I seriously agree w/ what Jace has to say though...no two stage checks are alike, and I don't say this as to run away from having to study/review all the material...it's just that there are some trivial things in some stage checks that can fail you when it's not really even part of the PTS.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Well guys, no two stage checks will ever be the same for given checkride, if they were, what would be the point. Jason, your example didn't show anything outside of the PTS or stage manual, but more of a detailed question, and a perfectly legit one, the problem was, the stage pilot did not know the answer to his/her own question, it happens, even at the 121 level. Remember the 70% rule applies to stage checks, you don't have to get every question correct and know stage pilot should be expecting you to, but you yourself should be striving to (circular argument huh?)
I always told my student a stage check (or FAA checkride) was the easiest test you will ever take, all the questions are in the PTS. Where I think you guys may be running into the roadblock is, instead of understanding and application, you are going into the stage check with more rote memory (we all do it, memorize as much as you can and spit it back out). The 103, especially, should be almost all understanding and application. Don't be afraid to say I don't know, but I can find it for you, ie know your reference sources.
Of course there is always going to be the 10% out there who have to prove something (if we ever discover what that something is, I will be a millionair!) and there is nothing you can do about that, EXCEPT, have your game on and know this stuff inside and out.
The one thing I really disliked about UND stage checks, was the attitude that a stage pilot could insert their own "theories" into the stage check, ie the whole argument on flaps and their effect on Vmc in the Semi, find that number in the POH???? That is what can throw you for a loop, and happens everywhere (well at least at the 2 training departments I've been through).
I can guarantee almost every question you will be asked came out of the airplane flying handbook, the AIM, the REGS, the PTS, the airplanes POH and any systems guides you may have. Thats not a huge area to search, but again no rote, understand and apply.
Kind of getting off point a little too. Don't spool yourself up over the stage pilot, getting a gouge on them will not help if you don't know the stuff, but not having gouge and knowing the material won't hurt you, and if you know the material you have the gough.
:nana2:
I always told my student a stage check (or FAA checkride) was the easiest test you will ever take, all the questions are in the PTS. Where I think you guys may be running into the roadblock is, instead of understanding and application, you are going into the stage check with more rote memory (we all do it, memorize as much as you can and spit it back out). The 103, especially, should be almost all understanding and application. Don't be afraid to say I don't know, but I can find it for you, ie know your reference sources.
Of course there is always going to be the 10% out there who have to prove something (if we ever discover what that something is, I will be a millionair!) and there is nothing you can do about that, EXCEPT, have your game on and know this stuff inside and out.
The one thing I really disliked about UND stage checks, was the attitude that a stage pilot could insert their own "theories" into the stage check, ie the whole argument on flaps and their effect on Vmc in the Semi, find that number in the POH???? That is what can throw you for a loop, and happens everywhere (well at least at the 2 training departments I've been through).
I can guarantee almost every question you will be asked came out of the airplane flying handbook, the AIM, the REGS, the PTS, the airplanes POH and any systems guides you may have. Thats not a huge area to search, but again no rote, understand and apply.
Kind of getting off point a little too. Don't spool yourself up over the stage pilot, getting a gouge on them will not help if you don't know the stuff, but not having gouge and knowing the material won't hurt you, and if you know the material you have the gough.
:nana2:
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
What is your explanation on how flaps effect Vmc?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Dugie8 said:
Interesting explanation, care to elaborate a little bit more. I'm always up for learning.
How about the with the gear extended and how it effects Vmc while you're at it?
thanks
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
stuckingfk said:
Sure! I will use my beloved DC-8 as the example. With 2 engines inop on one side (say # 1 and #2) Vmc with the flaps down (10 degrees or greater) 1is 170 knots, because you have 3000 psi going to the rudder actuator and the rudder is allowed to deflect fully 33 1/3 degrees either side. Now, with the flaps up, the rudder pressure goes to about 1500 psi and only 11-12 degrees of deflection, raising Vmc to 210 knots. To make things even worse, if you loose hydraulic power to the rudder, no matter the flap position, Vmc is no 230 knots!
The dash 8 had a similiar setup, rudder throw to the right was greater than rudder throw to the left, (critical engine) and did the same thing with the flaps. Flaps down full system pressure of 3000 psi to the rudder, flaps up only 1500 psi, and i think it actually went down to 900 psi as airspeed increased. I forget what the actual Vmc numbers are for the Dash, but they did change with flaps (Help me out here Turk).
The landing gear thing never made sense to me, maybe if the main gear on the opertive engine side was the only one down, could I see "keel" effect, but with the nose gear being ahead of the CG, it is a destabilizing force, and the main gear on the inop engine side is trying to keep the airplane lined up up that way, ie, pulling away from operative engine. I see the forces as cancelling each other out and having little or no effect on Vmc, of course the FAA says differently.
Icelandair
New Member
It has to be pretty low in the DHC-8, less than 90 knots since the engine is allowed to fail right at V1 on a takeoff roll and you must be able to continue the climb safely. Under V1 you are aborting anyway. Vr/V1 in the Dash is anywhere from about 89 when you have no pax/cargo to 114 when you are almost full with deicing fluids on your wings. I never saw a published Vmc for the Dash since it is probably less than the stall speed.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
BlueSide, don't listen to DugieDugie8 said:
. If you had a stage pilot such as this guy...http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?t=26920
...then you have a HIGHER chance of failing. Stage Checks are HIGHLY subjective. Don't listen to anyone who says "well, they will hold you to only the PTS"...because it ain't true. If the guy's an • like the guy I had (even though I passed the first time), you will have a higher chance of failing. In a perfect world, yes Dugie, it shouldn't matter who you have. But in the case at UND where we occasionally have stage pilots with big heads and big egos, it's an issue to be concerned about.
And yes, everyone who talked to me in person and guessed who the stage pilot was guessed correctly the first time - he's that bad and well known as being an unfair large-headed egotistical stage pilot. I won't mention names because you don't even need to. He's just KNOWN.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Wow... post resurrection... I didn't realize this was already discussed a long time ago... anyway, enjoy the read above.
Dj To Rule
New Member
Sure, I can steal the thread and divert attentionDugie8 said:
http://www.keltechandjohnnyb.com/empire.htm
Anyway that was a really good explanation of how flaps and Vmc are related.
Coming to stage checks. I do say that the examiner makes a huge difference. Theoreticaly it has to be what is with the PTS and on the checklist of items to be covered in the test. Yet however, bias, image, yada all that stuff makes a difference too. This applies both ways, to the examiner and the student. As a student we may feel pressured perhaps if the examiner doesn't talk at all, or perhaps tells you simply wrong and moves on without notice to the next question. As a student too before we meet the person, or from what we heard (oh he is easy vs hard) may set expectations too changing the view of the person. Hence it all comes to bias. First impressions. I know technically stereotypes, bias, prejudice, etc. are all things we struggle to fight, they do exist. It is a matter of fact of dealing with them in a constructive way.
As an examiner, we may think the student did not prepare well if they don't respond clearly, where they may know everything in and out, or perhaps they were cocky, and had no clue about anything. We deal with another human, not a computer, not a descrete answer. Stage checks are very complex, and can be a very thorough way of testing or also unjust too.
I had one experience which I never forget. Stage examiner asked me
"you see a red light, what is it?"
WTF? I thought in my head.
"mm is it on the ground?"
"No it's moving"
"ok, uh it might be a plane then"
______________
"yeah it could be a plane, but what about it?"
"it is the left wing of the other plane."
"I don't care what wing of the plane it is"
"what does it mean"
"It means I am in a reference point and angle where I see the left wing of the other plane, so it may be to my right parallel, in front moving across, or to the left, flying past."
"No"
"what, yes"
"no, I don't care where it is to you, what is it? and it can't be parallel that is formation flying"
"umm I see it all the time at night flying in to GFK"
Frusturating?
He just wanted me to say.. It is a plane moving from the right to the left.
Now that may be the word for word answer he expected to hear.
What if the plane was inverted?
You would see the damn thing move anyway from right to left, no matter what color.
Whereas other examiners would know what you are talking about, know you are not just spitting out rote book info and more rather on the understanding level.
Sheesh I typed too much
Dj To Rule
New Member
Make sure to check that video out too from the link.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Dj To Rule said:Sure, I can steal the thread and divert attention
http://www.keltechandjohnnyb.com/empire.htm
Anyway that was a really good explanation of how flaps and Vmc are related.
Coming to stage checks. I do say that the examiner makes a huge difference. Theoreticaly it has to be what is with the PTS and on the checklist of items to be covered in the test. Yet however, bias, image, yada all that stuff makes a difference too. This applies both ways, to the examiner and the student. As a student we may feel pressured perhaps if the examiner doesn't talk at all, or perhaps tells you simply wrong and moves on without notice to the next question. As a student too before we meet the person, or from what we heard (oh he is easy vs hard) may set expectations too changing the view of the person. Hence it all comes to bias. First impressions. I know technically stereotypes, bias, prejudice, etc. are all things we struggle to fight, they do exist. It is a matter of fact of dealing with them in a constructive way.
As an examiner, we may think the student did not prepare well if they don't respond clearly, where they may know everything in and out, or perhaps they were cocky, and had no clue about anything. We deal with another human, not a computer, not a descrete answer. Stage checks are very complex, and can be a very thorough way of testing or also unjust too.
I had one experience which I never forget. Stage examiner asked me
"you see a red light, what is it?"
WTF? I thought in my head.
"mm is it on the ground?"
"No it's moving"
"ok, uh it might be a plane then"
______________
"yeah it could be a plane, but what about it?"
"it is the left wing of the other plane."
"I don't care what wing of the plane it is"
"what does it mean"
"It means I am in a reference point and angle where I see the left wing of the other plane, so it may be to my right parallel, in front moving across, or to the left, flying past."
"No"
"what, yes"
"no, I don't care where it is to you, what is it? and it can't be parallel that is formation flying"
"umm I see it all the time at night flying in to GFK"
Frusturating?
He just wanted me to say.. It is a plane moving from the right to the left.
Now that may be the word for word answer he expected to hear.
What if the plane was inverted?
You would see the damn thing move anyway from right to left, no matter what color.
Whereas other examiners would know what you are talking about, know you are not just spitting out rote book info and more rather on the understanding level.
Sheesh I typed too much
God that's rediculous. I probably would have reached across the table and punched the guy in the face.
I HATE instructors that are like that.