Stadium TFR's

There was a guy here at the local FSDO who used to hand out schedules for when the Yankees were playing at home. He would say "it's better than nothing."
 
Zero1Niner said:
That is precisely the point. The FAA wants to hold us accountable for remaining clear of a specific area at a specific time, yet not have the responsibility to provide us with the appropriate information on the restriction. Seems completely INSANE to me. They should simply pay one or two more workers $100K/year to add these event schedules to the freaking website and supply the information to the briefers.

If people are getting violated for this frequently, why the heo is the AOPA not taking this issue on? Or are they?
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Thats just it. I don't think many are getting violated for it. Usually the TFR goes to 3000AGL, and most pilots fly higher than that. And I am willing to bet that if you can prove that you got a brief before you took off, and the briefer said nothing about a TFR, the FAA would not care much. Otherwise we'd probably be hearing more about it.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
So every time they tell me "Descend and maintain two thousand, fly heading so and so vectors for the ILS runway 30 (and enjoy your view of downtown Disney!)" I've been busting it?

No, I don't think so. Not if I'm on an IFR clearance and Air Traffic Control is being exercised over my flight.

If I'm VFR, though and outside the Class B, I don't think I'm on a clearance, and so I could be violated for busting the TFR. (Regardless of who I'm talking to and whether or not I'm receiving flight following...prior radio contact is not a clearance.)
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No. Look at msmspilot's direct quote of the Disney restriction just a few posts back. That particular restriction permits flight through it so long as in contact with ATC; it does not require a clearance.

Others don't have that language. Like the general stadium TFR, which is much more limited in its exceptions.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
No. Look at msmspilot's direct quote of the Disney restriction just a few posts back. That particular restriction permits flight through it so long as in contact with ATC; it does not require a clearance.

Others don't have that language. Like the general stadium TFR, which is much more limited in its exceptions.
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From the general stadium TFR:
THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES
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msmspilot said:
From the general stadium TFR:
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Odd. I guess I have a stricter reading - "authorized by and in contact with" to me says you need clearance to transit the TFR (e.g., an IFR clearance, or the specific words "cleared through the Disneyland TFR") - every time I've been allowed to transit (or ever had to transit, really) it I've been on an IFR flight plan and clearance.

(Then again, SoCal is probably too busy to snap out those words, too.)

There was a guy here at the local FSDO who used to hand out schedules for when the Yankees were playing at home. He would say "it's better than nothing."
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:clap: :rotfl:
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Odd. I guess I have a stricter reading - "authorized by and in contact with" to me says you need clearance to transit the TFR (e.g., an IFR clearance, or the specific words "cleared through the Disneyland TFR") - every time I've been allowed to transit (or ever had to transit, really) it I've been on an IFR flight plan and clearance.

(Then again, SoCal is probably too busy to snap out those words, too.)


:clap: :rotfl:
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I would say if ATC gives you an altitude and a vector, you're in contact with them and they authorized you to be where you are. The TFR doesn't explicitly require a clearance, so I see it more like a Class C thing than a Class B thing. I only use the airspace as an analogy. I realize the TFRs and the airspace classes aren't the same.
 
msmspilot said:
I would say if ATC gives you an altitude and a vector, you're in contact with them and they authorized you to be where you are. The TFR doesn't explicitly require a clearance, so I see it more like a Class C thing than a Class B thing. I only use the airspace as an analogy. I realize the TFRs and the airspace classes aren't the same.
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Right on. Ambiguous rule is ambiguous...I suspect if it ever went to an ALJ it would take some head scratching to determine just what is required to operate in those TFRs.
 
Does anybody know of a cercumstance when the FAA actually took action against a pilot for a stadium TFR?

I do get NOTAMS regarding things like nascar races in the area but that is for the skydiving that is generally associated with the even, and has nothing to do with the actual TFR.

I fly nearly daily through the Dismal Land TFR while under flight following and there has never been an issue. When pilots question it, ATC almost sounds irritated like the Dismal thing just drives them nuts. Maybe somebody can call their local FSDO and ask if they've actually taken action on any pilots?
 
Codyjp said:
Does anybody know of a cercumstance when the FAA actually took action against a pilot for a stadium TFR?
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Not locally. I'd imagine it's very much a function of which FSDO gets the call and how stupid the violation is (e.g. flying at 500' down Main Street of Dismal Land is probably a bad idea).

I fly nearly daily through the Dismal Land TFR while under flight following and there has never been an issue. When pilots question it, ATC almost sounds irritated like the Dismal thing just drives them nuts. Maybe somebody can call their local FSDO and ask if they've actually taken action on any pilots?
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Disgusting Land's TFR is in an operationally inconvenient place and I'm not surprised that they get irritated about people asking. The only heavy duty VFR flying I've done out of the Beach was VFR stuff for my commercial - a VFR checkride - and the instructors indicated that avoiding the TFR was necessary to avoid a bust (that's affirmative).

Maybe AOPA should get on this and see if the FAA will replace the TFR with something more appropriate (a "PILOTS ARE REQUESTED TO MAINTAIN A MINIMUM ALTITUDE OF 3000' AGL OVER DISNEY LAND" on the sectional chart would probably be just as effective).
 
Codyjp said:
Does anybody know of a cercumstance when the FAA actually took action against a pilot for a stadium TFR?
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After checking with two people at two different FSDOs, the only example either one could give me was a plane dropping jumpers for pregame, and then flying through the stadium (split stadium, went right down the middle, below the top). The FAA frowned on that one.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Not locally. I'd imagine it's very much a function of which FSDO gets the call and how stupid the violation is (e.g. flying at 500' down Main Street of Dismal Land is probably a bad idea).



Disgusting Land's TFR is in an operationally inconvenient place and I'm not surprised that they get irritated about people asking. The only heavy duty VFR flying I've done out of the Beach was VFR stuff for my commercial - a VFR checkride - and the instructors indicated that avoiding the TFR was necessary to avoid a bust (that's affirmative).

Maybe AOPA should get on this and see if the FAA will replace the TFR with something more appropriate (a "PILOTS ARE REQUESTED TO MAINTAIN A MINIMUM ALTITUDE OF 3000' AGL OVER DISNEY LAND" on the sectional chart would probably be just as effective).
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Unfortunately, Dismal has a lot more money than we do and better lobbyist. Pilots will never win that battle.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
AOPA should get on this and see if the FAA will replace the TFR with something more appropriate (a "PILOTS ARE REQUESTED TO MAINTAIN A MINIMUM ALTITUDE OF 3000' AGL OVER DISNEY LAND" on the sectional chart would probably be just as effective).
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This was my thought exactly. Chart it. If is now a 'restricted area', or whatever the hell they want to classify it as, CHART IT!!! There is NOTHING 'temporary' about this TFR, and they need to stop calling it a TFR!!
 
Zero1Niner said:
This was my thought exactly. Chart it. If is now a 'restricted area', or whatever the hell they want to classify it as, CHART IT!!! There is NOTHING 'temporary' about this TFR, and they need to stop calling it a TFR!!
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It's a PTFR, Permanent Temporary Flight Restriction!
 
Frankly it's ridiculous, but I see that's been covered above. So here's the best resource I've found for planning a flight into an area you might be unfamiliar with:

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/9-5151.html (Click the links at the top for NFL, MLB, NCAA, or Speedways)

You might also consider looking on http://flyagogo.net which plots out all those venues which *might* at any one time be affected by a stadium TFR.

By the way, an interesting item to note is that when the stadium TFR was updated last year they redefined the airspace surrounding stadiums from a "Temporary Flight Restriction" to "National Defense Airspace". Get violated for that and see what the headlines look like!

Oh, and if you read closely you'll see that the only ones who can grant waivers to operate regularly are the television right's holders. Safety my butt.
 
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