Spins!

J

Josh

Well-Known Member
For the last couple days, I've been going up about 6000MSL, and doing the spin awareness/stall awareness, recoveries, etc. for my CFI training. I should have done it a long time ago. Had a blast.

And it is good to do it with an instructor in back to talk you through what students may do, and how a stall may progress into an accidental spin. We went through a quite extensive bit of stuff, up through 6-7 turn spins, accelerated, cross controlled, power on, power off, etc. Worked today on trying to nail the recovery to be actually on the 2nd turn. Or 3rd on 3turn spins.

If you have access to a spinable plane, I'd highly recommend going out with an instructor to show you what can happen if you get into a spin. See how trying to 'fix' the spin with aleron can make things worse. Keep the plane in a straight ahead, full stall, and see how the rudder can be used to fix things when a wing wants to drop and turn you into a spin. Did that for a good dozen or so 'wags' back and forth, then recovered.

If there was a Citabria around when I was doing private, I would have jumped at the chance to do some spins.

Oh yeah, we also did some stalls with the nose straight down towards the surface. That was cool seeing the application of what a stall really is; breaking the critical angle of attack. Was pretty easy to do, just got into a loop, and pull back after addition of power on the top.

Did the flights with chutes on because, we planned on doing more than just a spin or two in .5 and the sign-off that a lot of places do.

I'm really tempted now to put a bid in on that 8KCAB on ebay now...
 
Be sure and wear a parachute if you're doing spins for any reason other than initial CFI training. Since you exceed 60 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch, each occupant is required to have one.
 
2 Questions from a student pilot

I thought that after 4 or 5 spins you loose most awareness of what is going, I.E. Direction, and how to recover? Also wouldn't it be impossible to ditch a plane that is in a spin, dosen't the inertia keep you planted to your seat? (In regards to parachutes)
 
I did not sping the C172 beyond 3 rotations during my CFI training because cessna did not test the plane beyond 3 rotations during certification (anyone correct me if I'm wrong here). It's true that recovery can become more difficult as the spin progresses. The rotations become faster and flatter, although in many airplanes they stabilize to a condition from which a recovery is easily possible (assuming CG is not beyond limits).

Would it be impossible to ditch from an airplane in a spin? Probably not....difficult, but but not impossible. The main reason they want to see you wearing parachutes is to give you an out if your airplane suffers a structural failure. Spins do impose considerably more stress on the airplane than normal maneuvers.
 
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Would it be impossible to ditch from an airplane in a spin? Probably not....difficult, but but not impossible. The main reason they want to see you wearing parachutes is to give you an out if your airplane suffers a structural failure. Spins do impose considerably more stress on the airplane than normal maneuvers.

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With wearing parachutes should come training on proper egress procedures, parachute depoyment procedures, post bailout procedures, and parachute landing fall.
 
Josh sounds like a blast, you have a cool website BTW. It's good that you're getting more than the 0.5 spin you talked about. The falling leaf stalls are great fun too. Is this in the PA-38?

Alchemy, I thought you only need parachutes when it's not for training purposes or you have pax. i.e. A CFI can teach a private student spins without parachutes, and that student can do spins solo without parachutes (ah, legally that is!).
 
Guess I should have stressed we did go over egress, wear, and use for the chutes. I missed a safety class they do at that FBO from time to time, where a local guy who jumps at all the area airshows comes out, and gives some training. They throw a plane in the hangar, strap on, and try and get out.

For me, this was all done in a Citabria 7KCAB.

After 2 spins, the turns really tighten up. To recover for 2, I could lead it by 1/2 a turn, and be pretty close to rollout on 2. Trying to do 3, I was around to almost 3 1/2 because my control inputs were not quick enough for the faster rate at that point.

The longer times in the spins, held it in, use the stick left, right, and relax a little pressure to show each time how the rate increases, then stick full back and neutral before the recover. Discussing why it is best to get back into a slower spin to avoid serious speed on the dive out, and then the key, doing that. I could talk about spin recovery fairly well, but I'm a much better learner when I get to do something, rather than just hear about it.

I'm going to go do a few more on my own, in the 7KCAB, then go out and slowly work into spins in a PA38, 1/2 turn at a time. Citabrias a cool, you can pretty much let go of inputs, and it'll come out, at least from a normal 2 or 3 turn spin, fairly well.

Spin awareness is listed for Private and Commercial as well. So you could do a spin for awareness, if it is an instructional session. I don't see a way to do intentional spins solo, without a pack on.

For chrisesp, I think it would be possible to get out during a spin fairly easy. But since a normal spin is fairly easy to recover, you would not likely be in that situation on bailout. I was looking, and during the spins, we were up around 1.5g or so during the spins, and went up to 3 to 4gs during the pullout. Something that would be harder to get out of would be a steep spiral. We kinda did a demo of what could get someone it, and we were at about 3gs during that, getting tighter on the turns, going down, airspeed building up. That would be harder to get out of. But, we slowly powered back, and recovery from a spiral is normal control pressures. Meaning you can level with wings as you normally would flying. You'll practice something similar, not as fast or steep, during your training for unusual attitude recoveries.

Oh, and a little plug. I've been training at: http://www.ameliareid.com/ lately. I would highly recommend anyone in the bay area go there for training.

Thanks. Did that web site in a day or two when we had some bad weather. I need to work on keeping it updated. The CFI section is what I really wanted to work on, but happened to have some pictures already so I started on other parts. Stuff for me to refer to, and students. Needs to be more organized that just a bunch of files I've collected. I suspect I will be more able to improve content when I get to CFI and modify things to what work in a real situation.
 
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Spins do impose considerably more stress on the airplane than normal maneuvers.

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Not really. Remember, you must be stalled to enter a spin. You are still stalled during the spin. (slow airspeed/lower load factor) As long as the stall entry isn't too abrubt you're not putting much more stress on the airframe than during, say, a steep turn.

Now if you're in a steep spiral instead of a spin, watch out. You could easily overstress the aircraft in this situation.

The two maneuvers look similar from the aircraft seats. A donut for anyone who knows how to immediately recognize the difference between the two.
 
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The stress is from the resultant high G pullup.


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If you go up and give yourself sufficient altitude for a couple of rotations and recovery, your pullup shouldn't be abrupt.

Go up, spin a 172, let go of the controls, and watch the plane recover. You won't be 2 inches shorter when you're done because the aircraft should recover somewhat smoothly on it's own.
 
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A donut for anyone who knows how to immediately recognize the difference between the two.

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Airspeed.

What kind do I get?
smile.gif
 
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Airspeed.

What kind do I get?


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What kind do you like? There's the Krispy Kreme here on Nova and International Speedway.
 
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Go up, spin a 172, let go of the controls, and watch the plane recover. You won't be 2 inches shorter when you're done because the aircraft should recover somewhat smoothly on it's own.

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My instructor showed me the same way you mentioned in my third or fourth lesson during private-training in a 152. Just let the controls go and watch it recovery.

But I'm not sure if it works also with low wing airplanes?
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My instructor showed me the same way you mentioned in my third or fourth lesson during private-training in a 152. Just let the controls go and watch it recovery.

But I'm not sure if it works also with low wing airplanes?
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I have never spun a Cessna, but I have spun a Pitts S2B, Zlin 242L, and a Super Decathalon. Of these, the Decathalon was the simplest to recover from, just use full opposite rudder and neutral elevator. (The Pitts and Zlin seemed to require more elevator.) By no means, however, would it recover just by letting go, and it is also a high wing.

Does the Cessna truly recover just by neutralizing all controls? If so, how?

G
 
The 172 I've been flying requires a pretty hefty dose of opposite rudder to come out. Also, if you don't cut the power WAY back there is no way you are going to be able to do anything. But as far as the stick (ok, yoke) goes, yeah, I've come out of a spin with out touching it at all.

Ethan
 
Ed, the relevant FAR here is 91.307(c). I think you may be correct in saying that a pilot can do spins solo and that a CFI can teach them to a student (since the CFI is a required crewmember in that circumstance). Could the CFI legally teach a commercial student spins? I'm not sure....that depends on wether or not the CFI is still considered a crewmember. The "other than the crewmember" clause is the catch that was throwing me off here.....as long as everyone on board is a crewmember I guess you can do whatever you want.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter.
(e) For the purposes of this section, approved parachute means--
(1) A parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a technical standard order (C-23 series); or
(2) A personnel-carrying military parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or AN drawing number, an AAF order number, or any other military designation or specification number.


As far as spins putting stress on the airplane, doesn't the inverted portion of the entry phase might expose the airplane to some "abnormal" forces?
 
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(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

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I'd say you can train a commercial student in spins without parachutes on the crewmember thing alone (it doesn't say required crewmember).

On the other hand since spins are required by 'any certificate or rating', and it doesn't specify whether the student has to be working on that particular rating, you can legally do them.
 
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Also, if you don't cut the power WAY back there is no way you are going to be able to do anything.

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Have you kept power in during the spin? What happens? Just curious...
 
Power on flattens out the spin a little bit, increases angle of attack, and increases rate of decent. Not too much power, but a little bit.

Too much power, just makes the pullout harder. The spin doesn't stress the plane much at all, but it is the pullout, after the spin is recovered. With power on, when a recovery is made, you can get closer to Vne a lot fasters, than with the power all the way back, and it is harder to break the stall, since the power brings in such a high angle of attack, it is harder to get the wings flying again.

Things change a lot after a couple times around. Let go type of recoveries in the Citabria were very smooth, and within 1/2 turn of when expected with a 2 turn spin. After 4-5 or so turns, it took another 1.5 or 2 turns, and speeds up really quick on the dive out. Not as comfortable feeling as in the 2 turn let go type of recoveries. Kirchner's flight instructor book has a great section on spins. He talks about how the 152 he has done thousand of spins in changes a lot around 5 rotations, as well as a number of other issues from his years of experience.
 
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Have you kept power in during the spin? What happens? Just curious...


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We tried in an old RAF trainer, a Bulldog. Lots of power just aggravated the hell out of the entry and would turn it into a steep spiral in no time. Like someone else posted, a little bit of power made the recovery a little more challenging and tightened things up a bit. About 1800-2000 RPM made for a handfull.

It's similar to cross contolled stalls. I haven't done them in a while, but as I rememer it's easier to enter them at a lower power setting than a high one.
 
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