SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I always liked the spin characteristics of the Tomahawk better than the cessnas.
Spinning a C172P
- Thread starter Dazzler
- Start date
deadstick
Well-Known Member
Yea....about that....I think there is a choral reef in dire need of some more mass. Send all the Trauma-hawks there.
Yes. They are incredible spin trainer, 100 percent effective (no student will ever spin after a spin demo with their CFI in this plane). Why? Well they will die on the lesson (FAA will only take them to the buffet) because of the horrible spin recovery ability and multiple accidents.
On a more technical note: Certification requires a 1 turn incipient spin be performed and demonstrated for the normal category certification or utility with a placard against spins. My guess is the aircraft can do that recover (when the test pilot performed it) but how easily it could be made unstable I think was overlooked. A lot of accidents in that aircraft from unrecoverable flat spins. Most likely in the spin the student performed what you normally see on stall recover from power off stall if the wing drops and they 'lock up': They lean back, hold back and wind up pulling (assume left spin) hard back right aileron raising the AoA on the left wing, because AoA goes up drag goes up. Conversely the top wing is decreasing angle of attack and speeding up. This results in a flatter spin.
This alone won't do it, the final step occurs when the CFI, maybe a little stunned and looking at the power (our students always seem to forget this), and they hop up but with their last thought being power thinking the student will forget it they unfortunately shove in full power. Airflow over the elevator makes it have better authority causing the nose to shift up sharply which in some aircraft can enter a flat spin. Aerobatic aircraft can but they can recover from it as well. Can someone confirm this: maybe that is the ultimate acrobat category that is certified for all 3D aerobatics? These aircrafts must demonstrate entry and recovery from a much wider variety of maneuvers. Our normal category and utility category aircraft may or may not be performed by some (but it is not done by the certifying test pilots!)there is no way to know it is never tested unless you do it.
splash
your social justice comic center
I must have missed the part in the c-172 POH where it says intentional spins are allowed. ...hummmm?
Well, I think I'll go and try it out anyways.
You may want to take a look at 2-7 of the POH.
Would you put a fat, fat, fat girl on the back of your scooter and expect it to handle well? Hey, some scooters just aren't built for fat chicks but in desperate measures sure...it will do! Com'on dude, your a CFI! Tell your student to rent ya'll a 152 or 150 to spin if he wants to see a spin. It will also teach him that it is A-ok to go out a spin any aircraft and the meanings in the books are just about next to nothing.
Well, I think I'll go and try it out anyways.
You may want to take a look at 2-7 of the POH.
Would you put a fat, fat, fat girl on the back of your scooter and expect it to handle well? Hey, some scooters just aren't built for fat chicks but in desperate measures sure...it will do! Com'on dude, your a CFI! Tell your student to rent ya'll a 152 or 150 to spin if he wants to see a spin. It will also teach him that it is A-ok to go out a spin any aircraft and the meanings in the books are just about next to nothing.
clestudentpilot
Well-Known Member
I must have missed the part in the c-172 POH where it says intentional spins are allowed. ...hummmm?
Well, I think I'll go and try it out anyways.
You may want to take a look at 2-7 of the POH.
Would you put a fat, fat, fat girl on the back of your scooter and expect it to handle well? Hey, some scooters just aren't built for fat chicks but in desperate measures sure...it will do! Com'on dude, your a CFI! Tell your student to rent ya'll a 152 or 150 to spin if he wants to see a spin. It will also teach him that it is A-ok to go out a spin any aircraft and the meanings in the books are just about next to nothing.
I know different models are different, but I'm looking at a 1977 172N POH and it says that spins are allowed. It says that all maneuvers that are required for the acquisition of "...certificates such as commercial pilot, instrument pilot and flight instructor..." are allowed. It says this under the Utility Category column. On the next page, it gives the recommended entry speed for maneuvers, and just reads that for spin you should enter it in a slow deceleration.
VA_av8r
Well-Known Member
I know that spins are allowed in a 172, like you said, so long as you're within the Util Cat, but doesn't it say in the FARs somewhere that if you're with a student, legally, you can only intentionally spin the plane if the student is a CFI candidate and needs the spin endorsement?
deadstick
Well-Known Member
I thought this was true, too, until I read this part of AC 61-67:
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
FARs said:
Note the any certificate or rating, not the certificate or rating sought by the student. This interpretation is backed up by FAA Chief Counsel opinion on the subject, but I can't remember where I saw that -- but you are excepted from the requirement to wear a parachute if you're with a CFI and are performing a maneuver required by any certificate or rating, even one not sought by the student.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
This is the same type of attitude as to why the MU-2 has an undeserved bad reputation when it is really as safe (and sometimes safer) as similar aircraft in its class.
I've read most of the reports on the fatal spin accidents in the PA-38 and a number of them would have been totally preventable if they had followed AD 85-11-06 like they should have had (some occured prior to this AD, though.)
Inside the weight and CG envelope and following the recovery procedure inside the POH there is no unacceptable risk in spinning a Tomahawk.
If its not your plane I would recommend a thorough preflight including an examination of all maintenance logs and if you're the CFI to perform the maneuver at a higher altitude than you would with a 152 and to be prepared to take the controls and apply the correct recovery inputs when it is the student's turn. Due to conservation of angular momentum as you recover when the aircraft pitches down the rate of rotation increases and this may 'spook' a student into believing that they entered an incorrect recovery when in fact it is to be expected. In a 152 the aircraft flies out of the spin before this occurs, unless you add power and force it to remain in the spin.
I've not tried hard (and in fact always tried best to avoid it) but I think the only way you could enter a flat spin in a PA-38 is either flattening it out on purpose after the spin is developed or by entering a spin in a cross controlled stall and then applying poor recovery inputs. I've never had to do this but veteran Tomahawk drivers told me the best solution is to momentarily deploy flaps to create a pitch down moment, then retract them and perform the recovery inputs. We've all heard about how someone who knows someone who managed to escape a flat spin by moving forward in your seat to create a pitch down moment but I think almost all of those stories may be apocryphal.
splash
your social justice comic center
You're right about that. My mistake. I still rather the idea of spinning the 150 or 152 before the 172.
You wouldn't happen to be a Webster grad would you?
Maybe this aircraft is different than what I have done spins in. But I would venture to say that the only reason for this speed increase was improper recovery. In this case I am referring to pushing before using the rudder, with rudder input first I have never seen an aircraft increase rotation when the nose was dropped. Added: Opposite rudder kills the spins momentum...right?
I understand that you are saying the turn radius going down then the speed of the spiral must increase (a nicer way of saying conservation of angular momentum) to accompany that which is what happens when you push forward. But opposite rudder applied before the elevator slows the spin that this increase would most likely go unnoticed especially by an already scared student. (Even the perceptive student will probably be too busy with the situation to see or feel this)
Is this really that noticeable in this particular aircraft or certain others for that matter?
