Spinnin' the Tomahawk.

Josh

Well-Known Member
Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

Ok, who has done it. I wanna hear your comments.

I kinda expect the folks out at FAT that on on this board will chime in, as I know they have a fleet of the PA38s, and assume they use them for spins, as they are listed in the CFI program on the web site there.

But anyone else, who has done it. Please give your comments. Would you do it again? On purpose?


I kinda want to do it, with someone who knows how the plane acts in a spin, and how it recovers. So if they are being use in FAT, maybe I'll take a trip out that way.
 

chperplt

New Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

I've read quit a few articles that say you do not spin a Tomahawk. According to what I've read, they go into a flat spin very easily and you end up dead.

Again... Just what I've read.
 

Visceral

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, who has done it. I wanna hear your comments.

I kinda expect the folks out at FAT that on on this board will chime in, as I know they have a fleet of the PA38s, and assume they use them for spins, as they are listed in the CFI program on the web site there.

But anyone else, who has done it. Please give your comments. Would you do it again? On purpose?


I kinda want to do it, with someone who knows how the plane acts in a spin, and how it recovers. So if they are being use in FAT, maybe I'll take a trip out that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to spin an airplane that isn't approved for spins? Go rent a Cessna unless you want a Darwin award.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

Josh
I have spun the traumahawk a few times. Are you sure the program at FAT uses them for spin training? I was under the assumption that the FAA put a stop to spin training in the PA-38. It is a fun ride because you don't really know what the airplane is going to do. Unlike a cessna , which is what I recommend for spin endorsement, the tomahawk may not break the same way twice. I can also tell you the airplane oil cans in the spin ... you hear the metal klinking, not very reassuring. When I did my spin training in them it was with Flight Safety Intl., who no longer uses them for spin training, that should tell you something. Bottom line is find out for sure the FAA's position on them, and if you venture to do so get a CFI who is proficient in that aircraft.

Jim
 

ananoman

New Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

The Tomahawk was originally certified for spins, and I don't think this was ever changed.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

The airplane definatley had to demonstrate a 3 turn spin for certification but I am not sure of the spin certification, I think repeat I think the FAA can put limits after the fact for safety reasons. I will defer to anyone who can cite a reference specific to the tomahawk.
 

Hootie

Old Skool
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

I've spun it a few times, no biggie , I only get worked up over ice. It spins fine but rumor has it that maybe on spin #432.12 (or whatever) the wings will flex into a bad unrecoverable position. Fun plane compared to the 150/152/172. The difference in spins between a tomahawk and a 152 is that the tomahawk ACTUALLY SPINS! Too bad the plane is just haunted with wussy pireps from people who have never even touched a pa-38.
 

Visceral

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

[ QUOTE ]
The Tomahawk was originally certified for spins, and I don't think this was ever changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know that. I didn't think any training Pipers were. My apologies.
 

jdflight

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

The Tomahawk is spin certified. We use them for spin training within the CFI course in FAT city, but we don't do spin training in and of itself. I've spun them several times. It's very different from a Cessna, but really not that big a deal (as far as spinning can be no big deal). I've never had one come even close to going flat. Inverted, yes, but that was pretty easy to get out of.

Oh, and I agree with the comment about the wussy pireps from those who've never touched a Hawk.
 

CaliforniaSurfer

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad the plane is just haunted with wussy pireps from people who have never even touched a pa-38.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother!
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

I remember reading about a checkride in which a spin was demonstrated in it; they could not recover normally and the inspector had previous aerobatic experience. They actually unbuckled their seatbelts and leaned against the windshield, which allowed them to get out.
 

jrm1493

New Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

The tommy spincs nicely and easily, and the FBO that I got my private at (Pilot's Choice in Georgetown, TX (GTU)) has 5 or so of them and the lady that owns the place spins them all the time, at least she used to - during my checkride with her (she's a DE) she told me all kinds of fun tommy spinning stories. I don't think the FAA did anything to restrict spins in the tommy.

I prefer the tommy to the 152; the 152 just seems a little more sluggish than the tommy and I love the wider cockpit with bubble-style windows. Great visibilty (except for the low wings of course). The 152 is so mild stalling compared to the tommy. You really have to be ready to kick in some rudder when you stall a tommy because it WILL break and drop a wing if you let it really stall. I did about a 1/2 turn spin in one once with my CFI when I was learning power-on stalls; it kinda scared us both. All I remember is one second seeing sky and the next looking straight down.

I've got about 50 hours in tommies and about 25 or so in 152's, and here's my thoughts:

152 - more stable stalling, easier to land (dosen't float so much). Sucks with two wide-shouldered guys. Also I think it has a little more useful load w/full tanks.

Tommy - more fun to fly, a little better performance I think, better vis and more room in the cockpit. Can slip w/full flaps (fun)
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

Ok, just got back in to read these comments here.

As I expected, there were more "you can't spin that aircraft" from those who have never flown a PA38 than helpful comments I was looking for.

Good to see some comments from those who actually have flown, and spun, the aircraft.

I'm doing spins in a Champ and a Citabria, so the endorsement will already be taken care of.

Reason I want to do this is the local FBO. Got about 40hrs in them before private, and maybe 10 or 20hrs since. Got a couple of them there, but no one has done spins in them. And, if I'm ever going to put a student in one of those planes, I think it is something I should do, before it happens with a student in the left seat.

JD, too bad to hear it is only done for the CFI training out there. That is at MFS, right? If it wasn't Fresno, I'd consider the month or more for the CFI course out there.
 

Acadia

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad the plane is just haunted with wussy pireps from people who have never even touched a pa-38

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the fact that the PA-38 had a substantially higher rate of stall spin accidents had nothing to do with it.
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

Actually, I can only find two incidents in the NTSB database that were caused by stall spin accidents...
 

jdflight

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

It is at MFS, and the month in Fresno (in my humble opinion) would be well spent, even though Fresno blows. The big thing that stops people from out of school with CFI is that the owner offers the ground school only every couple months. It's a three week course, 3 hours a day. That said, while we don't necessarily do spin training, I don't find it inconceivable that you could talk with the owner or admissions director (Jim or Jerry, respectively) about your situation (wanting to learn to spin a Hawk for CFI purposes) and have it approved.
 

Acadia

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I can only find two incidents in the NTSB database that were caused by stall spin accidents...

[/ QUOTE ]

Go over to AOPA and do a search. There is a whole history (good & bad) dealing with the PA-38. Also it might have just been that the PA-38 has a higher rate of incidents/accidents (not just stall/spin) that comparable training aircraft.
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

Since people are giving links, here are a few more:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:YhwhpftUfDQJ:www.fcitraining.com/Docs/AOPA_ASF_Response_9-8-031.pdf+piper+tomahawk+spin&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.mpaviation.com/lesson9.htm "to learn what a spin is really like..."

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/Flttrain/TP13747/spins.htm another follow the POH note

http://www.grumman.net/specific/yankee/trustytrainer.html The Grumman AA1 series had spin approval removed because of problems. PA38 is still ok.

https://www.richstowell.com/aopa.htm#TOMAHAWK_REFERENCE some good info from an 'expert'.


Now can we get back to people who have actually spun the plane, I'm already aware there are plenty of haters-who-have-never-flown-one out there, so no need for y'all to keep posting.

I may contact them out there. As you can see from what is often written, the key with this plane, is it is not used enough so that everyone knows how it flies (or recovers from a spin). Which is my reason for wanting to do them.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Re: Spinnin\' the Tomahawk.

Uhh, I'm the only one who posted a link so why don't you just direct your comments to me? Anyway I'm not a hater of the plane. In fact I don't care at all about the plane and more specifically what you do with it...

BTW That NTSB article link I posted has a HUGE amount of info on stall / spin characteristics of the airplane... was trying to be helpful and I thought that's why you started this thread but apparently you just wanted to announce to everyone that you're gonna go do a few spins -hip hip hooray.
 
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