Spin avoidance question

Sprint100

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
I have really been thinking about spins lately. My main concern is that in an effort to not overshoot the runway, I put in a little rudder in my turn to final. I know a little rudder can help coordinate the turn at normal speeds, but at slow speed and at about 20 degrees of flaps on a Cessna can this fall under excessive control input and lead to a spin? Oh yeah, the turn is standard rate?
 
Typical pattern stall/spins are overshooting and undershooting. In your situation, so long as you maintain a feel for the aircraft throughout it's maneuvering, you'll get a number of stall cues prior to being in extremis, or the point of no return. A little rudder doesn't hurt, but you've really got to maintain the aforementioned feel as well as monitor your coordination (visual backed up with the turn coordinator). If it ever doesn't feel right, roll out and go around.

The overshooting/undershooting stalls in the pattern are of particular importance to swept-wing aircraft due to their insidious onset (few and similiar cues) and no noticable nose movement (no break).....just you dropping like a rock while at already low altitude..
 
If you are coordinated you won't spin in a stall. If you don't stall you won't spin. If you overshoot, just make a coordinated turn back to centerline or go around
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Perhaps an old golf saying will help here

Student: "Mr. golf pro....What's the best way to play a 200-yard fairway bunker shot?"

Golf Pro: "Grab your driver and go and practice the shot that put you in the bunker in the first place!!!"
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If you are coordinated you won't spin in a stall. If you don't stall you won't spin. If you overshoot, just make a coordinated turn back to centerline or go around
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Pretty much sums it up.

In the pattern at low airspeeds (base to final in your case) ... keep the airplane coordinated. Maybe you need to adjust your spacing on the downwind so you don't overshoot final.

Have your instructor demonstrate a cross-controlled stall to you. The only time I'm not coordinated in the pattern is during a slip to a landing.
 
Seriously, it takes a good amount of control input to spin a plane (for the most part). I second ZR1's recommendation to have your instructor show you a cross-control stall if he hasn't already...it'll give you a better sense of how the airplane performs in a stall/spin situation.
 
I recommend seeking out some spin training, which typically should include simulated base-to-final and departure stalls. It really helps your confidence to take the plane all the way through a spin and see where the low-speed maneuvering limit is.
 
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I recommend seeking out some spin training

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That is exactly what I was thinking. I have never been exposed to spin training and based on all the information received, it seems that would be something you would have to have a feel for.
 
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Spin training scheduled for next week in the Citabria. Should be interesting.....

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Oh good times. Did mine in a Citabria. You'll have a blast!
 
I dont see any reason to just input rudder if you overshoot the centerline. Just kicking rudder does little to change the course the plane is going. sure it swings the nose but all your realy doing is making the plane skid. All I do is continue the turn and turn back, or go around. Unless your increasing the bank of the turn I dont see any reason to just use rudder.

I think this is the leading cause of GA accidents. Someone over shoots the runway and kicks full left rudder (or right in a right hand pattern) and causes the plane to spin.

If you have ever held the plane level and just used rudder to turn you'll notice how slow it changes course. So I believe continuing the turn or increasing rate of turn by using bank would be most effective.

Sorry for the rambling, I just think a pilot induced spin from base to final is a really stupid mistake and common sense would keep you from doing it

Tom
 
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I dont see any reason to just input rudder if you overshoot the centerline. Just kicking rudder does little to change the course the plane is going. sure it swings the nose but all your realy doing is making the plane skid. All I do is continue the turn and turn back, or go around. Unless your increasing the bank of the turn I dont see any reason to just use rudder.

I think this is the leading cause of GA accidents. Someone over shoots the runway and kicks full left rudder (or right in a right hand pattern) and causes the plane to spin.

If you have ever held the plane level and just used rudder to turn you'll notice how slow it changes course. So I believe continuing the turn or increasing rate of turn by using bank would be most effective.

Sorry for the rambling, I just think a pilot induced spin from base to final is a really stupid mistake and common sense would keep you from doing it

Tom

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...which is why you really only hear this happening to student pilots and brand new private pilots.
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Good post though.
 
Actually I think more new commercial pilots buy it like this than anyone... It's where you have high confidence but not high experience
 
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Actually I think more new commercial pilots buy it like this than anyone... It's where you have high confidence but not high experience

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No joke? Hadn't heard that. Good to know.
 
I'm a new pvt pilot I guess (86 hours) and I know its just against physics that this would ever work. I like to study about physics and I guess that just is always in my thought process in everything I do.

Tom
 
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I dont see any reason to just input rudder if you overshoot the centerline. Just kicking rudder does little to change the course the plane is going. sure it swings the nose but all your realy doing is making the plane skid. All I do is continue the turn and turn back, or go around. Unless your increasing the bank of the turn I dont see any reason to just use rudder.

I think this is the leading cause of GA accidents. Someone over shoots the runway and kicks full left rudder (or right in a right hand pattern) and causes the plane to spin.

If you have ever held the plane level and just used rudder to turn you'll notice how slow it changes course. So I believe continuing the turn or increasing rate of turn by using bank would be most effective.

Sorry for the rambling, I just think a pilot induced spin from base to final is a really stupid mistake and common sense would keep you from doing it

Tom

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The final turn stall has bit pilots with more experience than you or me. In a straight-wing plane, the onset is relatively easy to see; far less so in a swept-wing. I don't think someone would jam full rudder one way or the other as you described, but rather merely overplay the rudder into the turn with or without corresponding bank, and they either don't recognize what the aircraft is trying to tell them, or they don't respond to those clues in a timely manner, normally from fixation on the overshoot or other traffic, to just plain being behind the aircraft.

Final turn stall is a very common killer of T-38 pilots, and still happens, with the last accident being only a few years ago.
 
Anybody notice how big MikeD has been recently on the aerodynamics of swept-wing aircraft?

Come on Mike...don't you Air Force fly-boys have anything else to contribute?
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You're stories about the gun on the A10 were much more exciting!!! (sarcasm of course)
 
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I dont see any reason to just input rudder if you overshoot the centerline. Just kicking rudder does little to change the course the plane is going. sure it swings the nose but all your realy doing is making the plane skid. All I do is continue the turn and turn back, or go around. Unless your increasing the bank of the turn I dont see any reason to just use rudder.


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I like the comment and appreciate the willingness to give advice but I don't think you thoroughly read my original post. All I questioned was using a "little" rudder in the turn. Keyphrase being 'in the turn', so I am not using rudder alone.
 
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