Spending Money

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And for the comment about not flying enough. 5 Lessons a week scheduled, most all of which are cancelled. The weather has been real bad up here lately.

[/ QUOTE ]Go south or wait for spring. Flying in NY in winter is not a good plan.[ QUOTE ]
Would you disagree that timing is everything...? Getting that senority number by 2 years is more important than saving 20G's?

[/ QUOTE ]That may be true. However, there's no guarantee that you won't have to wait just as long to get the number if you go through an academy. I am a perfect example ... I got my college degree from ERAU, ratings included, in 1998. I got my first airline job in 2004. I'm hardly atypical, nor are there any skeletons in my closet. It's just the way the ball bounces sometimes.[ QUOTE ]
The academies work for some people. Sure those FOs in the RJs might only have 500 hours, but they have a job and a seniority number over that 1500TT CFI at the FBO. I look forward to instructing and agree that they're most likely better pilots, but again....they don't have the job.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't buy the hype. I know plenty of people from academies who haven't gotten the job at 500 hours. In fact, the 500-hour wunderkinds are the exception rather than the rule, no matter what the glossy brochures tell you. Interview guarantees are hype. Even if they aren't, there is absolutely no guarantee of a job from that interview. I could interview a salamander for an airline pilot job ... that doesn't mean he'll get hired. For purposes of this discussion, academy grads are no different from salamanders.[ QUOTE ]
As true for the other places. Some people the ATPs, ARI-BENs have worked for. But they're have been more success stories from the academies than the other places.

[/ QUOTE ]I would STRONGLY argue that. The academies have glossy brochures and full-page magazine ads to flaunt their success stories. The FBOs do not. Remember that an academy is one giant monolith with a massive marketing budget, and FBOs are thousands of unrelated small business with almost zero marketing budget and no collective voice. There's nobody out there trumpeting their success like the academies. For the record ... the tiny little rural Part 61 FBO where I did my flight instructing ... after getting my ratings from Pilots-R-Us, by the way ... four consecutive flight instructors hired by the airlines at 1200-1800 hours TT.
 
Guess what Smitty, we don't need you to give us the "other side of the story". We've already heard it 1000 times over and,,,,,,oh yeah, been there. Geez, I sound like a broken record.

Yeah dude, better hurry up and rush as fast as you can and get that regional job. Better get that seniority number quick. Even if it cost 20 or $30K more. Who cares, at least you'll be making $18K.[/end sarcasm\]

I'm done with you dude. Go where you want, do what you want. Nobody cares! No more advice from me. You already know it all and have all the answers. You should do well in your career with that attitude and mentality.
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Kind of iffy on the ATP 90-Day Fast Track and my CFI says it's a joke. What would you guys suggest? The 10 month or the 90 Day.

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This question/comment isn't really central to thread, but I'll toss you my 2 cents!

'Tis not a joke! I am in the 10 month "self-paced" program. My only frustration is watching guys who are training daily pass me up!

I've had a ton of one-on-one ground school, and will have 50 hours in a simulator before I'm done. (I wonder if being comfortable in a sim will be a benefit at some point in the future....Hmmmn?)

Primacy, Recency, Excersise = more than just answers to test questions.
 
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But all I hear from airline recruiters and other pilots say that the FBOs are a waste of time.

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Before I get to the meat of this post: Airline recruiters are telling you that FBO's are a waste of time? Can you say kick back? I mean think about it. Places like FSA, DCA, or PanAm have agreements with the airlines. Do you think the school and the airlines simply are buddies? It's business arrangement plain and simple.

And from a historical standpoint if it weren't for the FBO's the only person here who would have any shot at a job with the airlines would be MikeD (i.e. the military).

Okay...

I once asked about owning a plane and whether I should by a new plane or a used one.

Someone here gave me the greatest bit of wisdom I've heard on the topic: "You can buy a new plane that goes 120kts or an old plane that goes 120kts. The difference is about $100,000."

I am doing my PPL at FBO's (and getting financing from Sallie Mae and Key). I don't wear a uniform, I don't get 10 hours in a level D sim, but in the end I get the same private pilot certificate that guys at FSA, DCA, RAA, and ERAU get. Of course I also have time to work and have a social life. Those are things that you're not really going to be able to do at the academies. In fact I think PanAm actually has a policy that their students cannot have jobs on the side (which means you have to take out loads of loans, which in turn puts more money in their coffers).



The only thing that the Academies have going for them is time. It might take you less time to get your tickets, but that means you fly and do nothing else. You don't work, you don't go out, you don't have a chance to network with people outside of the academy, and in the end your nothing, but a number and a wallet.

My adivce is that you look at it like this: if you have 9 months to go and fly full time (that seems to be the average unless you go to ATP) and you're committed to getting DONE with your ratings then it will take you 9 months whether you go to RAA or Mom & Pop's Flight School.

So to paraphrase the wisdom above (thank you oh winged-flame baiter): "You can got to an academy and get your ratings in 9 months or you can go to an FBO and get your ratings in 9 months. The different is about $50,000".

Finally, I want to say this: You're 19. Go to school, have fun, eat drink and be merry, because before you know it you're going to be 29 and I promise you if you don't have a life at 19 you'll look back and wonder why the hell you didn't have a life at 19 when you didn't have any real responsibility.

I see people like you all the time. They're in such a rush. "I've gotta be an airline pilot by the time I'm 20" or "I've gotta be married and have 12 kids before I'm 25" or "I've gotta be the CEO of Microsoft by the time I'm 30". Why? I mean it's great to have goals and all, but life is what happens between the day you're born and the day you die, and while you may say something like, "I'm 100% committed to being a pilot and I have no need for anything else", consider this: the airlines want well rounded people. They want people who have been around, people who will represent the company is a positive way. People who they would like to spend 8 hours sitting next to in the cockpit. Think of the people who appeared on the first season of The Apprentice. All of them had interesting life stories.

I mean that ad for the Navy is cheesy, but true it's, "if someone wrote a book about your life would anyone want to read it?", and the answer is no, if all it says is I was an airline pilot for 40 years.

Do you love flying for someone else, dealing with unions, passengers, pay cuts, unreasonable managers, being made to feel less than human, cleaning up puke, eating airport food, so much that you want to do it non-stop for 40 years? I can't imagine that anyone here does. Loving flying is one thing.

Flying is freedom, but only when you can do it on your terms. Otherwise you're simply schleping people point A to point B and back again day in and day out. Would I like to fly for an airline? Maybe, but not for 40 years. There are too many other things I want to do before I'm old and can't do them anymore.

So there you have it. Take it or leave it.

Naunga
 
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I'm really looking at ATP and Ari-Ben now. Kind of iffy on the ATP 90-Day Fast Track and my CFI says it's a joke. What would you guys suggest? The 10 month or the 90 Day. Also...Ari-Ben...what can you tell me about them? Their website is "incomplete".



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I don't understand what you mean about Ari's website being "incomplete"? If your looking for placement #'s you won't find them....Ari-Ben isn't about selling you on bogus hiring stats. They're about getting you quality multi time cheap. They don't guarantee interviews or anything like that, you're on your own for that but the guys don't really have any trouble getting interviews with 800 multi and 1200 total time.
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I'd hate to be the RAA grad with only 500 hrs. and 10 multi sitting next to the Ari-Ben or ATP guy in an interview....its pretty obvious which one isn't going to get hired.

If you have any questions about Ari-Ben just ask.
 
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And from a historical standpoint if it weren't for the FBO's the only person here who would have any shot at a job with the airlines would be MikeD

Naunga

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That's a scary thought, my friend.
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I never told any of you that you were wrong. I was just laying out the other side of the story...where I'm sitting from. And for the comment about not flying enough. 5 Lessons a week scheduled, most all of which are cancelled. The weather has been real bad up here lately. I looked at ATP and their success rates are really not that good. 1 pilot hired a month and 5 interviewed?

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Smitty, did you think of counting the number of instructors who were hired in the past year instead of just looking at November (and we are only midway through)? I counted 62 instructors hired from November 2003 to November 2004. Considering ATP employs roughly 60 instructors I'd say that's a pretty nice turnover to the airlines....
 
MikeD? An airline pilot?
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Baaah!
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That would be like Lee Ermey (Full Metal Jacket)

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Wearing a clip on tie, sipping coffee and talking about care and emotional compassion.

HAA!

MikeD's my homie but I knew from day one that if he's not living in a quonset hut in the driving southeast Asia rainstorm within scramble range of an 0-2, an OV-10 or a A-1 Skyraider, he's not going to be happy!
 
Since no one else has addressed it, I feel obliged to chime in on the seniority issue:

Yes. Seniority is life at the airlines, and you want to get a seniority number as quickly as possible.

However, you should not kill yourself to get it because like everything else in this industry, senority numbers are completely ephemeral.

Meaning? Let's say you go the Academy route to get your number as quickly as possible. Let's say you succeed, and manage get hired on by Major Airlines 5 years faster than you would have going to the FBO route (this, by the way, is quite unlikely). So now you're 7 years into your career at Major Airlines, and you're finally starting to make enough $$ to both eat and start taking a bite out of your GINORMOUS students loans from the Academy. You're 5 years ahead of your FBO counterpart, and you're even starting to envision life in the left seat. Sadly, Major Airlines goes belly-up from a combination of debt, high fuel prices and general managerial incompetence, and its various aircraft and routes are scattered to winds.

Now, where are you? No job, no seniority number and a huge wad of debt.

Where is your FBO counterpart? No job, no seniority number and NO DEBT (or at least less).

Just some stuff to think about.

MF
 
Dude, you've obviously made your mind up.

I'm really not sure why you even came and asked for advice, but you did so I'll waste a little bit more time with you (I'm waiting for a script to finish running anyway).

You realize that you'll just get an interview. You still have to compete with ALL of the other people that they interview. People like career changers, out of work airline pilots, and people who trained at small flight schools.

You'll be competing for a job with people who more flight time than you, because the nifty thing about the gauranteed interview is that they'll interview you below their mins, but my guess is this: unless your [censored] don't stick at all you're just being patronized.

You talk about being trained to airline standards, well to paraphrase Keifer Sutherland in "A Few Good Men", "I have two books at my bedside, the Federal Aviation Regulations and the King James Bible. The only standards I am aware of are those set down by the FAA and the lord our God".

Think about it. The airline will hire you, but you'll still go through their training and indoc. So I'll argue that you are NOT being trained to airline standards, because if you were you could skip all that. You'd know where you're supposed to wear your hat and where your not, what call signs to use in the air, and how to properly put the plane to bed each night. I promise you that you'll not learn any of that at RAA (except for the way that THEY do it).

You keep talking about funding. You will go to RAA and get a loan from one of 3 places: Key Bank, Sallie Mae, or Pilot Finance. Those are the EXACT same places that you get loans to train at FBO's.

You need a college degree. Some argue that you need only a 2 year some say a 4 year. I say that you need to do everything to make you competitive. I mean let's say an airline is trying to fill one spot, you're in a room with 20 people who all have the same flight time, are all equally proficient, but one of them has a 4 year degree in political science. That guy just made himself stand out. Whether he interviews first, 15th, or last. The interviewers will all remember he was the only one with a 4 year degree.

Stay in school. Get a four year degree and train while you're in school. I mean you have 4 years. Stay proficent during the year and then go hardcore in the summer.

Of course I doubt you'll even get past the first few lines of this and really it's your money, but I don't like to see anyone suffer with a mountain of debt. It really doesn't make sense to spend big bucks when you know that you're not going to be making big bucks.

Good luck to you.

Naunga
 
I really haven't made up my mind and have been thinking about what you gentlemen are saying and considering it. I can honestly tell you that I'm starting to veer away from RAA and I thank you for ''letting me see the light''.

johnnyb, honestly what is your deal? I was asking for advice, you're obviously sour about something. I wasn't saying you guys don't know anything and you know that so close your mouth unless you know what I'm talking about without taking my words out of context. And what attitude? You get everything you wanted when your were a kid? Because you sure seem to want to get your way. And 18k, you know damn well for a fact thats what first year FOs at Colgan make. Are you even an airline pilot? Grow up. And if thats the way an adult behaves...then I certainly don't want your advice.

The whole point of this post was to say the WX in this part of the country is not good enough for the speed I want to finish and build time. I never planned on getting the BA in Aviation, but instead do an online BA in another subject of interest. But you guys are just not willing to read the post and think about it. The moment you read RAA a reg flag went up.

I like Ari-Ben and I've been looking at them longer than RAA. And I've been looking at ATP for longer than RAA.

ATP vs Ari-Ben?
 
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I like Ari-Ben and I've been looking at them longer than RAA. And I've been looking at ATP for longer than RAA.

ATP vs Ari-Ben?

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That question has been covered MANY times in the Ari-Ben and ATP forums. Personally I thought Ari-Ben was a better deal...quite a bit cheaper, especially after financing, more multi time and a better shot at an instructor job once you finish. Can't go wrong with either school really...just personal preference.
 
The school and CFI are only part of the equation. I have plenty of coworkers that went through FBO to get their ratings. You only get out of training what you put into it. You should be flying 4-5 times a week at the FBO. If you are not flying that often find a more dedicated CFI.

Remember there are no shortcuts in this industry. Most will agree with me on this and being a CFI for a short time can teach you a lot too.
 
"I'm a freshman at the State University of New York at Tompkins Cortland working on my Aeronautical Science degree"

then...

"I never planned on getting the BA in Aviation, but instead do an online BA in another subject of interest. But you guys are just not willing to read the post and think about it."

Do you see a contradiction here? Then you accuse us of not paying attention?

RAA does send up red flags. Honestly, you sounded in the beginning like a guy who has bought off on "big academy" marketing and as a guy who hasn't done his homework as far as researching this site. This happens a lot, actually, and if you stick around here for a while you'll learn more than you wanted to know.

ATP vs Ari-Ben? No idea....no personal experience.
 
The reason I posted that is because the credits transfer almost anywhere because they're basically liberal arts and science courses. And the only way I could stay close to home, go to school, and fly. Thanks guys, please don't hate me.

Brett
 
we dont hate you dude. We are glad you came to our nook here on the web.

People on here just dont wanna see you do somethin stupid like go to one of those academies that pump people full of empty promises and fake guarentees.
 
yup....nobody hates ya, we're just trying to help, I hate seeing people get screwed over because they don't know all the other options available. I'm sure glad I found this site a few years ago...saved me a lotta money and got me steered in the right direction.
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Thanks guys. Really appreciate it. I'm looking hard into Ari-Ben now...they seem like a small one-on-one kind of program. Their price is freakin ridiculously low. Appreciate the time and effort.

Brett
 
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Why are some people so attracted to these academies? What's so hard about getting your ratings at a local flight school? I'm not in much of a position to talk, as I haven't had the opportunity to be where some of you guys are. But instead of thinking there are shortcuts, take it slow and enjoy your flying while you build your time.

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If one was low on time I would probably look towards a 141 school of some sort...........Local FBO training can drag on and on
 
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