Speed Vs. Dollars

killbilly

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Got to thinking about a common conundrum in GA:

It is less expensive (sometimes) over a given distance to fly a faster airplane than a slower one. Relative to the most common airplanes in the rental fleets (172s, 152s, Arrows, Archers, DA-40s, some Mooneys and assorted Cirri) I'm wondering if anyone has ever done a basic "average performance" chart/tool/spreadsheet that gave quick comparisons about the least-cost rental for a given distance.

I realize that there are a lot of variables that have an effect on cost, but I'll give you an example. I used Skyvector just to do a quick calc:

Flying from, say, JYO to VGT at 115kts GS is about 15 and a half hours in the air. The rental rate on a 172 for that is $140 an hour so, $140 x 15.5 = $2170.

Same trip at something that does maybe 140kts GS, but rents for $180 an hour, $180 x 12.75 hours = $2295.

Slightly more money, but less time in the air, etc...

I think you get my point. Wondering if anyone has worked something like this up? Maybe I will if no one else has. Seems like pretty straightforward spreadsheet work.....

I also realize that not everyone values their time spent the same way. But that does have an impact, obviously.
 
killbilly said:
Got to thinking about a common conundrum in GA:

It is less expensive (sometimes) over a given distance to fly a faster airplane than a slower one. Relative to the most common airplanes in the rental fleets (172s, 152s, Arrows, Archers, DA-40s, some Mooneys and assorted Cirri) I'm wondering if anyone has ever done a basic "average performance" chart/tool/spreadsheet that gave quick comparisons about the least-cost rental for a given distance.

I realize that there are a lot of variables that have an effect on cost, but I'll give you an example. I used Skyvector just to do a quick calc:

Flying from, say, JYO to VGT at 115kts GS is about 15 and a half hours in the air. The rental rate on a 172 for that is $140 an hour so, $140 x 15.5 = $2170.

Same trip at something that does maybe 140kts GS, but rents for $180 an hour, $180 x 12.75 hours = $2295.

Slightly more money, but less time in the air, etc...

I think you get my point. Wondering if anyone has worked something like this up? Maybe I will if no one else has. Seems like pretty straightforward spreadsheet work.....

I also realize that not everyone values their time spent the same way. But that does have an impact, obviously.
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I'd go with Frontier. Way faster and only $524. ;)

http://www.expedia.com/Flights-Sear...,adults:1,seniors:0,infantinlap:Y&mode=search
 
It depends on the point of the trip. If you are training and need the hours, you're interested in cost per flight hour, getting that single trip done faster at a higher cost per hour will obviously cost you more over the length of training. If it's just to get there for business, the equation changes as the value of time is removed and it's a pure cost per leg value, so the faster airplane makes more sense.
 
Matt13C said:
It depends on the point of the trip. If you are training and need the hours, you're interested in cost per flight hour, getting that single trip done faster at a higher cost per hour will obviously cost you more over the length of training. If it's just to get there for business, the equation changes as the value of time is removed and it's a pure cost per leg value, so the faster airplane makes more sense.
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This is a good point, and why I mentioned that time values vary. I'm just wondering if anyone ever worked out a tool for Performance Dollars, so to speak.

I did a little bit of this when I was considering flying a GA plane to NJC last year and combining IR training with it. Didn't work out, but it was an interesting exercise.
 
I've looked at this a bit, but it is very dependent on each individual rental rate. You could do a comparison chart on known local rates, but they vary enough to not be able to create a generic chart.
 
I have done something similar. I have compared the rates of a 172, 182, and PA44. (The PA44 always loses, and is there for the comfort of flying at night in imc over water). In the longer trips it can break even or be slightly cheaper. I plan for each flight though and run the comparison.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
I have made the spreadsheet you mention, but for purchase and operating costs as opposed to renting. Like @nosehair says, your question would depend on rental rates. For owning, the most cost-efficient single-engine aircraft in general seem to be Mooneys.
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Really? Just curious, but what are you comparing it to? I ask because I made the assumption (perhaps erroneously) that the cost of ownership on a retractable was much higher than a fixed-gear.
 
Seems pretty easy for rental rates vs a known speed. If it takes $140 to fly a C172 for an hour, and in that hour you theoretically can travel 115nm.. then just do the math. 140/115 = $1.217 per mile. The 2nd aircraft (180/140) is $1.285 per mile.
 
killbilly said:
Really? Just curious, but what are you comparing it to? I ask because I made the assumption (perhaps erroneously) that the cost of ownership on a retractable was much higher than a fixed-gear.
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The Mooney annual is actually just barely more expensive than a fixed gear with less performance. I can get an annual done at the Mooney service center in Sarasota (well known place) for only $1,500. An annual on a 172 will usually cost you $1,200, so I'm paying a little bit more on the annual for a lot more speed and more efficiency. The Mooney is a LOT cheaper. Engine overhaul is more, as is prop overhaul, but the money saved over 2,000 hours of flying is so far in excess of the increased overhaul costs that it's not even close.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The Mooney annual is actually just barely more expensive than a fixed gear with less performance. I can get an annual done at the Mooney service center in Sarasota (well known place) for only $1,500. An annual on a 172 will usually cost you $1,200, so I'm paying a little bit more on the annual for a lot more speed and more efficiency. The Mooney is a LOT cheaper. Engine overhaul is more, as is prop overhaul, but the money saved over 2,000 hours of flying is so far in excess of the increased overhaul costs that it's not even close.
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You bought one? What flavor?
 
killbilly said:
You bought one? What flavor?
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1968 M20C with updated panel and fuel bladders. Finished the pre-purchase inspection last week, and I'm having the seller fix a few small items that they found, so I should be picking it up either this weekend or the next, depending on whether they're done in time to have the title company get us the registration paperwork.

And just as another example of how great JC is, @PhilosopherPilot is going to do my checkout flight to make the insurance company happy. How many internet forums you know where people do that sort of thing for each other? Awesome.
 
lightspeed said:
Seems pretty easy for rental rates vs a known speed. If it takes $140 to fly a C172 for an hour, and in that hour you theoretically can travel 115nm.. then just do the math. 140/115 = $1.217 per mile. The 2nd aircraft (180/140) is $1.285 per mile.
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But what about time? I think what he is asking is, you pay more per hour (or by mile), but how many hours (or miles) does it take to break even or end up to the good? Rental rate and fuel burn is more per hour, but you go faster, so where is the tipping point?

I have used fltplan.com to compare different aircraft time in flight (172 vs 182) and then done the math on paper, but a spreadsheet would be a good idea. I was doing the math when contemplating joining a flying club with different aircraft, so fuel burn was also an issue as the rental rate was dry.
 
Aren't most rentals wet, anyway? I can't remember ever renting and having to pay for gas. So the only thing that matters is most speed for the dollar.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Aren't most rentals wet, anyway? I can't remember ever renting and having to pay for gas. So the only thing that matters is most speed for the dollar.
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Most are wet rate. The place I rent from right now is dry rate, though.

There's a reason for it - the airport (VKX) has a fuel club that basically sells the fuel to the members at cost. Members pay $18 a month in dues, so with fuel prices so low right now, it actually makes the dry rates pretty good to work with, and as a bonus, the airplane is always full of gas. Watched 4 Mooneys in a row come in this weekend and fill up there, too. :)

Anyway - @dc3flyer gets what I'm talking about - and yeah, it's fairly easy to sit there with a calculator and look at the distance/time math...I'm just lazy sometimes and thinking that a spreadsheet showing all the aircraft I have access to with the rates plugged in would allow me to make some quick decisions about what plane to fly when.

Congrats on your purchase, @ATN_Pilot - those are neat little airplanes. I'd like to fly one some day but I gotta get finished with my IR.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
1968 M20C with updated panel and fuel bladders. Finished the pre-purchase inspection last week, and I'm having the seller fix a few small items that they found, so I should be picking it up either this weekend or the next, depending on whether they're done in time to have the title company get us the registration paperwork.

And just as another example of how great JC is, @PhilosopherPilot is going to do my checkout flight to make the insurance company happy. How many internet forums you know where people do that sort of thing for each other? Awesome.
Click to expand...
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20C/1968-MOONEY-M20C/1359153.htm

?

Panel looks nice.
 
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