dc3flyer
Well-Known Member
Something like that was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!!!
exleardriver said:i'm sure it will help others..just not those pilots who've always 'known it all'.
Tell me about it!
Speed Question
- Thread starter dc3flyer
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Something like that was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!!!
Tell me about it!
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
No worries man, I am all about helping out and not pointing fingers, causing hysterics and name calling
I will leave that to other people here Exactumundo
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Meat Missiles? Is that like Steaks-To-Go?:buck:
casey
Well-Known Member
just for reference, when you hear this it is relation to a crossing restriction like "Cross XYZ at 10,000 ft and 250 kts". The "keep your speed up"/"no speed over XYZ"/"go fast" from ATC means delete the 250kt restriction, but you still need to slow to 250 when given a descent out of 10,000 ft.
likewise, if you are on the climbout and ATC assigns you 290kts while you are at 5000 ft, what them mean is "when able", ie, climb to 10,000 ft before accelerating.
US ATC cannot authorize you to exceed 250 below 10, and you'll know it if you are in an aircraft that is granted an exemption.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
After reading this, and thinking about it, a conclusion has been reached that is scary. At first I wanted to jump in with the "WTFO" response, then I thought about it and thought the "everyone makes mistakes" excuse was valid, then thought it about it some more and now am back to WTFO!!!
Descending through 11,000 and dialing back the VS rate and then getting a bit distracted only to come through 10,000 at 265 knots, is a mistake; missing a radio call is a mistake; forgetting a checklist is a mistake; blatently disregarding regs IS NOT A MISTAKE. You both claim to know the 10,000/2509 rule, and this is the scary part, but instead of falling back to a conservative attitude you BOTH decided, what the hell, ATC said do it, so we are going to ignore the rule, WTFO!!! When did flying all of sudden become about doing whatever you want RIGHT up to the edge of safety??? When did everyone throw the conservative mind set out the window???
Why is it so hard to follow the rules anymore and be a conservative pilot. Lately, here and in my experience(s), everyone seems to be looking for easy out, the shortcuts, the ways around the regs. JUST DO IT RIGHT for crying out loud.
Descending through 11,000 and dialing back the VS rate and then getting a bit distracted only to come through 10,000 at 265 knots, is a mistake; missing a radio call is a mistake; forgetting a checklist is a mistake; blatently disregarding regs IS NOT A MISTAKE. You both claim to know the 10,000/2509 rule, and this is the scary part, but instead of falling back to a conservative attitude you BOTH decided, what the hell, ATC said do it, so we are going to ignore the rule, WTFO!!! When did flying all of sudden become about doing whatever you want RIGHT up to the edge of safety??? When did everyone throw the conservative mind set out the window???
Why is it so hard to follow the rules anymore and be a conservative pilot. Lately, here and in my experience(s), everyone seems to be looking for easy out, the shortcuts, the ways around the regs. JUST DO IT RIGHT for crying out loud.
You saw this post, right?
I don't think this:
really reflects DC3flyer's or his captain's actions.
And if I were Dc3flyer, I'd be thinking that this was the very last question I posted on JC.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
As a professional pilot you are paid to operate an aircraft safely. Following FAA regs is part of the deal. Failure to do this is not only unprofessional but potentially dangerous.
I don't fault the new guy FO as much as the captain who has "5 times as many hours as [me]" should be familiar with such a freaking basic part 91 reg.
Well, duh.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
I forget that not all of us strive to do the best job possible.
Sorry about that. Continue saying "it's okay, everyone makes mistakes" when they were completely ignorant towards the rules of the road. It's cool. Let's all do 320 knots tomorrow in a show of solidarity for incompetence!
Sorry about that. Continue saying "it's okay, everyone makes mistakes" when they were completely ignorant towards the rules of the road. It's cool. Let's all do 320 knots tomorrow in a show of solidarity for incompetence!
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Dude you crack me up. While I certainly agree that mistakes are dumb and should not be tolerated, it is the repetition of such mistakes that makes one a bad pilot. Nobody here has enough info to hang this guy do we? I normally try to stay away from your antics...but you reeled me in on this one.
Next time you confess to a mistake, I will be sure to show how you are a danger to society and your licenses shall be quickly ripped up. Oh wait, I forgot, you are perfect right? :bandit:
Is this directed towards me?
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
What you and Ian are failing to notice here is, it wasn't a mistake, it was disregard for a rule THEY KNOW and a willful act to break that rule when a simple conservative attitude would have kept them SAFE and LEGAL. This wasn't a situation of not understanding a complex rule or anything.
Maybe DC3 should take some time off from here and read the regs, might do us all some good.
What you are failing to notice is that from everything dc3flyer wrote, it was NOT a "willful act to break that rule." They did not cross 10k and decide "what the hell, let's just keep the speed up cause we're late!"
From his perspective:
- He knew the 250 under under 10k rule
- He relied on the captain's judgment
- It seems he didn't query the captain about it at the time (lesson learned I assume)
- The captain admitted to messing up
I don't see willful negligence, I see an f-up they admitted to, learned from, and are going to fix.
The horses are pretty high around here these days.
And you know what? The lesson here isn't "read your regs, you unprofessional slacker!" This is actually a great lesson in CRM. Any new, young SIC in a complex aircraft has a significant challenge when it comes to relying on the experience of a far more experienced PIC. I'm not sure what CRM classes are like in the civilian world, but if they are anything like the military you probably learn about different scenarios in which an SIC's over-reliance in the PIC's experience caused an accident. Even armed with this knowledge, it is still VERY difficult for a new, un-experienced SIC to question a more experienced pilot. Maybe every young stud on JC has no problem with it, but I highly, highly doubt it.
Dc3flyer learned from this, and he'll probably be a bit more vocal in the future.
From his perspective:
- He knew the 250 under under 10k rule
- He relied on the captain's judgment
- It seems he didn't query the captain about it at the time (lesson learned I assume)
- The captain admitted to messing up
I don't see willful negligence, I see an f-up they admitted to, learned from, and are going to fix.
The horses are pretty high around here these days.
And you know what? The lesson here isn't "read your regs, you unprofessional slacker!" This is actually a great lesson in CRM. Any new, young SIC in a complex aircraft has a significant challenge when it comes to relying on the experience of a far more experienced PIC. I'm not sure what CRM classes are like in the civilian world, but if they are anything like the military you probably learn about different scenarios in which an SIC's over-reliance in the PIC's experience caused an accident. Even armed with this knowledge, it is still VERY difficult for a new, un-experienced SIC to question a more experienced pilot. Maybe every young stud on JC has no problem with it, but I highly, highly doubt it.
Dc3flyer learned from this, and he'll probably be a bit more vocal in the future.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Yours and my definition of willfull are different, I can agree to disagree. Again, I take issue with the lack of conservative thinking more than breaking the rule, we all mess up and break rules every day, it happens. They knew the rule and chose to ignore it, to me that is willful, they even had question in their minds as to the ability of ATC to grant them permission to go faster than 250 below 10, again instead of siding on the side of caution and conservatism (word?) they just went off blindly letting ATC drive the airplane.
Ian, are you really ok with that kind of thinking from the people you share the airspace with?? I believe you fly for Airnet, if I am wrong my apologies, if so, this is your job, not some weeked hobby that can be done half assed. We all need to be doing our jobs CORRECTLY, and when someone displays the attitude and method of thinking that is going to get others and themselves hurt, you are damn right they need to be called to the carpet and made to dance.
This would be a totally different conversation had the situation been that those two were distracted by something and noticed their speed and then made the attempt to fix it. THEN come here, tell the story and then ask for clarification on speed(s) below 10. That isn't the case, the rule was known, the rule was broken for no good reason AT ALL and neither pilot showed any kind of reasonable judgement, especially considering the implied total time of the captain.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
Aviation is a complex discipline with less than perfect players. I've done many things ONCE that I will never do again. The key is to learn the lesson and move on. Beating up on yourself will not accomplish anything positive. The 250/10000 lesson has been learned - leave it at that...
dc3flyer, even though you are a new FO, you may find yourself in a position of tutoring the captain from time to time. Don't be pressured into doing something you know to be wrong. Remember, professionalism isn't defined by the number of stripes on your epaulets or the seat you sit in.
dc3flyer, even though you are a new FO, you may find yourself in a position of tutoring the captain from time to time. Don't be pressured into doing something you know to be wrong. Remember, professionalism isn't defined by the number of stripes on your epaulets or the seat you sit in.
dc3flyer
Well-Known Member
Okay guys, thanks for beating my head into the asphault. For the record, I have stated that I (me) am new to flying in a jet. I have less than 100 hours in any airplane that is capable of flying in excess of 250 knots. I know the under 250 below 10,000 rule. I didn't (did not) realize that ATC could not allow, or ask you to exceed that speed. It seems that there is also a regulation about altitudes east and west bound, yet ATC often clears me to an odd altitude momentarily when I am flying westbound. Does my accepting that clearnence make me just as ignorant as this?
I know it is one of my responsibilities as the co-pilot to assure the captain doesn't make mistakes. That is why there are two of us. When he didn't slow at 10,000, I assumed (yes, made an ass of me) that since we had been assigned a greater speed, that we were expected to maintain it. It is not a structural issue for this plane, so all is fine with the airplane. When qeustioned about it by ATC, the first words out of the captain's mouth were, "Oh shot, we're at 8,000!" He was obviously not thinking about it for whatever reason. Once on the ground, I asked him about when we should reduce our speed in this situation and he said we should have slowed down at 10,000 as normal regardless of previous requests from ATC. He knew it, and just f'ed up.
I was asked and asked often about speeds and speed restrictions during my training. I am just now at the point of putting that rote knowledge to practical work. At NO POINT in my training, did anyone ever aske me, "Well, when can you exceed 200 within 4 nm at or below 2500' in a Class C or D? When can you exceed 250 below 10,000'?" Until today, I thought the answer to both of those questions was with ATC approval. Obviously, I was wrong. Evidentally at least one more person was too, because Ian posted the regulation and thought that ATC could approve it. We have both been corrected.
I appreciate the knowledge of my captain (him telling me afterward, after he messed up, that we should have slowed) but I know there is an abundance of knowledge here, so I posted the question. I appreciate the "corrective action" I have recieved for it, as well as exactly what I was looking for... somewhere that expounds on the regulation as we read it in Part 91 (The controller response from Omdahl).
Now I know the answer to my question so I can assure it doesn't happen again and maybe more people may have learned from my mistake, error, ignorance, or complete disregard for regulations, whatever you want to call it.
I know it is one of my responsibilities as the co-pilot to assure the captain doesn't make mistakes. That is why there are two of us. When he didn't slow at 10,000, I assumed (yes, made an ass of me) that since we had been assigned a greater speed, that we were expected to maintain it. It is not a structural issue for this plane, so all is fine with the airplane. When qeustioned about it by ATC, the first words out of the captain's mouth were, "Oh shot, we're at 8,000!" He was obviously not thinking about it for whatever reason. Once on the ground, I asked him about when we should reduce our speed in this situation and he said we should have slowed down at 10,000 as normal regardless of previous requests from ATC. He knew it, and just f'ed up.
I was asked and asked often about speeds and speed restrictions during my training. I am just now at the point of putting that rote knowledge to practical work. At NO POINT in my training, did anyone ever aske me, "Well, when can you exceed 200 within 4 nm at or below 2500' in a Class C or D? When can you exceed 250 below 10,000'?" Until today, I thought the answer to both of those questions was with ATC approval. Obviously, I was wrong. Evidentally at least one more person was too, because Ian posted the regulation and thought that ATC could approve it. We have both been corrected.
I appreciate the knowledge of my captain (him telling me afterward, after he messed up, that we should have slowed) but I know there is an abundance of knowledge here, so I posted the question. I appreciate the "corrective action" I have recieved for it, as well as exactly what I was looking for... somewhere that expounds on the regulation as we read it in Part 91 (The controller response from Omdahl).
Now I know the answer to my question so I can assure it doesn't happen again and maybe more people may have learned from my mistake, error, ignorance, or complete disregard for regulations, whatever you want to call it.
Snuggle
Well-Known Member
Hey man we all make stupid mistakes. I agree with calcapt, we learn from it and move on. It's unfortunate that as pilots we are so quick to throw each other into a fire. Seriously folks, keep it professional and constructive. No need to try and get all high and mighty on a fellow aviator.
Snuggle
Well-Known Member
Well said Ian.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
not to offend anybody but...
- The 250/1000 rule is not a difficult one to know/understand/implement.
- Common sense should also be applied. "Keep your speed up" on a 10 mile final does not mean go 250 (if you are currently at 200), it does not mean do Vmmo, it requires common sense.
That being said....
- I have flown with 20,000hr CA's who (on day 4) are doing 290KIAS through 10,300 ( I say "speed") and they realize "s*it" and slow it down but do cross 10K at 260ish. They forget, I have forgotten- it happens! But you fill out the ASAP report and you figure out ways for it to NOT happen again. Personally whenever its my leg and I am given an altitude of 10,000 or below I bug 250 on the speed. This requires me to use the VS in the decent and keeps me in the loop as to "why am I not at 250 when I have it bugged?" As I cross 11,000 heading down I pull the thrust to idle, VS 1000fpm down, the plane slows, and I cross at 250/10000. If I don't bug the speed I am more likely to forget. Your results may vary. Nobody is perfect- look at 90% of the accidents!
Sorry to come off as an ass but people make mistakes, but instead of excuses- you need solutions, and your results will ALWAYS vary!
Fly Safe:rawk:
- The 250/1000 rule is not a difficult one to know/understand/implement.
- Common sense should also be applied. "Keep your speed up" on a 10 mile final does not mean go 250 (if you are currently at 200), it does not mean do Vmmo, it requires common sense.
That being said....
- I have flown with 20,000hr CA's who (on day 4) are doing 290KIAS through 10,300 ( I say "speed") and they realize "s*it" and slow it down but do cross 10K at 260ish. They forget, I have forgotten- it happens! But you fill out the ASAP report and you figure out ways for it to NOT happen again. Personally whenever its my leg and I am given an altitude of 10,000 or below I bug 250 on the speed. This requires me to use the VS in the decent and keeps me in the loop as to "why am I not at 250 when I have it bugged?" As I cross 11,000 heading down I pull the thrust to idle, VS 1000fpm down, the plane slows, and I cross at 250/10000. If I don't bug the speed I am more likely to forget. Your results may vary. Nobody is perfect- look at 90% of the accidents!
Sorry to come off as an ass but people make mistakes, but instead of excuses- you need solutions, and your results will ALWAYS vary!
Fly Safe:rawk:
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Ok, now the story(ies) are changing a little bit. Your first post, you are level at 300 knots at 8k, that requires pushing the power up to maintain 300 knots from a descent. In your last post your Capt looked up and "realized" you were at 300 knots, something doesn't jive or you were descending at 500 fpm from 240 to 8000. If your latter story is the correct version, they hey mistakes happen, I've done it got at least 3 t-shirts, but the first account paints the "cowboy" picture, to me anyway.
Your statement about your training and being asked when you CAN exceed set speed limits raises a red flag. No one is going to spoon feed you the answers, you need to dig into the books, read accident reports ASK questions, etc. Of course after my tounge lashing you probably think you shouldn't ask questions
anic:. You are a pilot in that airplane just like the guy next to you, regardless of seat, if something don't look right SPEAK UP! If you don't know, SPEAK UP, when in doubt go conservative and spend 2 more minutes in the air. But for crying out loud, don't EVER EVER let ATC drive the airplane and don't EVER EVER EVER do something against your gut feeling.Being new sucks, you constantly feel behind the 8 ball and think you have nothing to bring to the table, WRONG, do whatever it takes to be ahead of the 8 ball and you have tons to bring to the table.
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