Speed Assignment on a STAR with Speed Restrictions

Alchemy

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
Okay, this recently sparked a contentious debate on my company's message board:

http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/pipe/31830-atc-houston-arrivals.html

I'd like to get some controllers' takes on this.

You're doing an arrival into wherever. The arrival says cross ABCDE at 280kts. When you are say 30 miles from that fix ATC tells you "Maintain 310 knots." Without further communications, what speed do you do when you get to the fix? I'm not putting "query ATC" as an option. Let's say the frequency is busy and you have no way to get ahold of them. Which would you do?

To be honest I don't think I've ever had ATC not specify what speed they wanted at the fix in this scenario, but I have to admit I'd probably slow down unless I was specifcally instructed to "delete the speed restriction at ABCDE". Yes I realize that ATC assigned altitudes are binding over arrival crossing restrictions, but speeds seem different, mostly because arrival speeds are usually hard restrictions, wheras alt. restrictions are usually "expect" advisories.
 
Even it there was a hard altitude (say the Korry 3 into LGA) would you descend on your own before they told you to descend on the Korry 3?

This is a good question and I am curious as to the answer as well. I would maintain the last assigned speed as that is controller assigned. I have however had CA's that asked me to slow down according to the chart, so I am curious as to the correct answer.
 
wheelsup said:
Even it there was a hard altitude (say the Korry 3 into LGA) would you descend on your own?
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Nope. But: would you continue barreling at 310 below 10,000ft just because ATC never told you to slow down? Obviously not. This is where the different logic for speeds starts to enter pilots' brains, I think. Maybe the 10,000 ft rule is the only exception, I don't know.
 
Well no in the confines of the FAR's of course. Just like Jax center telling you to maintain 280 knots when you check in out of CLT out of 8000'.
 
Any speed or altitude assignment from ATC after reception of a clearance for a STAR/SID/DP voids published speeds or altitudes unless specified by ATC.
 
Until you hear "descend via" or "comply with restrictions" when on an arrival, it is simply lateral guidance only. I go balls to the wall as long as possible/legal. If ATC says 310, I'll give them 310 until I get down to 10,000, regardless of what the chart says. But then again, I'm on salary.

What bugs the hell out of me is the RNAV DPs. Seems that every time we're issued one, as soon as we check in with departure we're given a heading to fly and an altitude to maintain. After four or five more transmissions, we've basically flown the DP exactly as published, both vertically and laterally, but with an abundance of radio transmissions.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
What bugs the hell out of me is the RNAV DPs. Seems that every time we're issued one, as soon as we check in with departure we're given a heading to fly and an altitude to maintain. After four or five more transmissions, we've basically flown the DP exactly as published, both vertically and laterally, but with an abundance of radio transmissions.
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Amen to that.
 
Alchemy said:
Okay, this recently sparked a contentious debate on my company's message board:

http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/pipe/31830-atc-houston-arrivals.html

I'd like to get some controllers' takes on this.

You're doing an arrival into wherever. The arrival says cross ABCDE at 280kts. When you are say 30 miles from that fix ATC tells you "Maintain 310 knots." Without further communications, what speed do you do when you get to the fix? I'm not putting "query ATC" as an option. Let's say the frequency is busy and you have no way to get ahold of them. Which would you do?

To be honest I don't think I've ever had ATC not specify what speed they wanted at the fix in this scenario, but I have to admit I'd probably slow down unless I was specifcally instructed to "delete the speed restriction at ABCDE". Yes I realize that ATC assigned altitudes are binding over arrival crossing restrictions, but speeds seem different, mostly because arrival speeds are usually hard restrictions, wheras alt. restrictions are usually "expect" advisories.
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Coming in to DFW, we get things like "Wave the speeds until DIETZ" all the time.

Just don't be the knucklehead that asks to wave a speed of 250 north of the field when you're landing south, or when the fix is to be crossed at 9000 ft, and you're good. :)
 
Firebird2XC said:
Coming in to DFW, we get things like "Wave the speeds until DIETZ" all the time.

Just don't be the knucklehead that asks to wave a speed of 250 north of the field when you're landing south, or when the fix is to be crossed at 9000 ft, and you're good. :)
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In IAH it doesn't really matter when/if we ask, center will almost always tell you that you have to ask approach when you switch. Approach will let you go fast about 20% of the time, but I won't bust the speeds unless they say "delete the speed at gland/brkmn/riice/txmex/tqela/wolde" etc. Maybe that's just force of habit from flying those same arrivals over and over and almost always getting the speed restrictions.
 
Alchemy said:
In IAH it doesn't really matter when/if we ask, center will almost always tell you that you have to ask approach when you switch. Approach will let you go fast about 20% of the time, but I won't bust the speeds unless they say "delete the speed at gland/brkmn/riice/txmex/tqela/wolde" etc. Maybe that's just force of habit from flying those same arrivals over and over and almost always getting the speed restrictions.
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That's a good rule of thumb. Always obey the posted speeds unless ATC says otherwise.

For DFW arrivals, they're useful for racking up airplanes at set intervals on the arrivals. If things are slow or there's a gap, they'll tweak the speeds at their discretion to smooth things out.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Until you hear "descend via" or "comply with restrictions" when on an arrival, it is simply lateral guidance only. I go balls to the wall as long as possible/legal. If ATC says 310, I'll give them 310 until I get down to 10,000, regardless of what the chart says. But then again, I'm on salary.

What bugs the hell out of me is the RNAV DPs. Seems that every time we're issued one, as soon as we check in with departure we're given a heading to fly and an altitude to maintain. After four or five more transmissions, we've basically flown the DP exactly as published, both vertically and laterally, but with an abundance of radio transmissions.
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I like your first paragragh.
Departure issues speeds and altitudes different from the DP to get you inline for the Center and to keep you from bouncing off an arrival or two.
We (fought)had the speeds removed from our RNAV arrivals because they didn't do poopoo as far as separating planes. The "descend via" is nice when there is only 1 to 3 planes.
Our DP's should really only have lat nav along with Clearance Delivery restrictions. I feel the pilot's pain when it comes to RNAV DP's.

If you don't mind, I hate when I tell a pilot to delete speed restrictions, maintain 250kts, climb and maintain 16,000 and his response is: is that an unrestricted climb to 16,000 and do you still need the 230kts at FIXXX?
Mind you NATCA and controllers had little or nothing to do with RNAV at most facilities.
 
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