Speaking of Scabs...

This is in reply to Grayson, but it holds generally I think.

This is my point of view on unions, after seeing the havoc that big business can bring to a community.

To me, managment is the devil. Their goal is to try to extract as much as possible from their workers for the least amount of money. That means that they will screw workers as often as the oppertunity presents itself, simply by the definition of managment (extract as much as possible with less money). I've worked jobs where that has happened as I'm sure most people have. One in particular (that I continue to complain about) was Toys-R-Us (TRU). While it might seem that this situation wouldn't matter at such a low level job, the local economy in which I was trying to find work in was so depressed that college educated folks were taking retail jobs at TRU because they had lost the jobs that their degree's had gotten them. Managment well knew that they had people busting down their door to make $5.40 an hour, and would fire someone every 2-3 weeks as an example to make sure everyone knew they were serious. This place needed a union as managment was horrible. Now I know a few of you are going to say "Just go work somewhere else!" That's great, until you have a 4 year degree in computer science and can't find work within 100 miles better than TRU and you have a family to feed and bills to pay. The fact of the matter is that sometimes the jobs are not there, and I don't believe that means it should be open season on employee's to bend over just so they have a poorly paying entry level position. That's extortion if you ask me. As such, TRU won't be around much longer; their employee's will probably end up bleeding the company to death. Good riddance, it should teach some of the managment how NOT to treat their employee's.

Now contrast that with my current job. My boss has bent over backwards to take care of me, and as such I've busted butt for the guy to do whatever I can to help him out. If he's got another job for me, I'm there without complaint beacuse I KNOW that he's going to take care of me. We're not paid the best (what student's ever are?), but we're well taken care of. We get treated well, and we'll do a lot for our managment.

To me, airlines that have unions have done something to deserve unions (line stolen from Russ). There are some company's out there without unions, and I wouldn't have any problem working for them if they want to take care of their employee's. But if an airline want's to do everything that all the mainline carriers have done in the past (most noteable to me, the CAL and Eastern Airlines strikes), then bring the union on. Break managment's legs; they have it coming to them. If you want to treat your employee's horribly and try to extort them just so you can make a few more million then you deserve to have a union on grounds.

I'm all ready to make nice with company's that want to play fair, but after you work a few crappy jobs with horrible managment because you can't find anything else, or you drive around Flint, MI a little while and see the devistation that GM caused you start to think a little differently. That's great for ya'll that enjoy getting extorted by your employer, and want to defend them doing so; but I won't. Furthermore, if you are walking across a picket line and want to take my job then you are taking a stab at ME and MY FAMILY. It's scabs that destroy people's lives when they are trying to better themselves. Imagine the outcry if France started bombing U.S. military bases during the Iraq war beacuse they didn't agree with our invasion. Don't agree with a strike? Fine, but don't dare try to cross it less you want to get your own self curb stomped; just like we would have done to France if they had started bombing us. It's no different to me.

Managment always throws the first punch in these situations, and they deserve to get curb stomped if they want to treat their employee's like dirt.

BTW: Definition of curb stomp; to forcefully place one's head between your foot and a curb. Also known as what the University of Toledo's football team did to Western Michigan's football team the other night.
 
I agree with MikeD on this one. It is interesting, intellectually speaking, to take a critical look at lists such as these, as well as other manipulation tactics.

In no way in my previous post did I suggest that the management is correct in their actions. I just think it is hard for the union to say they are on the moral high ground and doing what is right for the average man when they allow thug tactics to go on.

Again, I don't know if aviation unions suffer from the same problems as other unions. It would be nice to get some insight into this.

Grayson
 
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, if you are walking across a picket line and want to take my job then you are taking a stab at ME and MY FAMILY. It's scabs that destroy people's lives when they are trying to better themselves. Imagine the outcry if France started bombing U.S. military bases during the Iraq war beacuse they didn't agree with our invasion. Don't agree with a strike? Fine, but don't dare try to cross it less you want to get your own self curb stomped; just like we would have done to France if they had started bombing us. It's no different to me.



[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon now. Blatent and outright violence in these picket-line situations cannot be condoned in any way, nor can the "thug mentality". It's neither legal nor moral. And to try to justify it isn't right. It's no different than someone that gets layed-off from a job, then returns the next day with an AK-47 and kills some people......his definition of getting "curb stomped".
 
I think one important distinction that needs to be made is that the union doesn't keep a specific "scab list". There are members that aren't in good standing for either flying struck work or taking place in activities that are against the best interests of the company and the union at large.
 
The idea of getting branded a "scab" is a union pressure tactic pure and simple. By reducing it to the scarlet letter, the Star of David sewn on the sleeve, you scare people into toeing the line. It is not a very high-minded principle.

The problem is that not all union actions are right or smart. Mobs will do crazy things that individuals won't . To me the most vivid example was the Patco strike. The controllers I knew loved their jobs, were well paid and did not want to leave their professions. But they had some crazy leadership and they linked arms and went over the cliff with them. I'd put the CAL strike in very nearly that mold. There were elements of it at EAL too. But the fear of being labeled a scab is powerful stuff, and a necessary tool if unions are going to achieve full "loyalty".

I never got put in that position so I never had to make that decision. But I never decided that I would automatically follow my union if I thought they were taking us over a cliff.

As for MikeD's "good scab/bad scab" dilemma that is the problem. It is not that easy. That whole mentality is a collectivist mentality that I just can't get comfortable with. There are other loyalties involved here. There is loyalty to company and family that comes into these decisions. That was huge in the CAL strike as many pilots thought they were being asked to sacrifice their careers and their company for an ALPA vendetta against Frank Lorenzo. Anybody who says they know the "right" decision in that case is full of it in my opinion.
 
The quandry of professional aviation.

On one hand enjoying the spoils of collective bargaining, but then having a distaste for the tactics used to garner those spoils.

Where's Confuscious when we need him?
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
The idea of getting branded a "scab" is a union pressure tactic pure and simple. By reducing it to the scarlet letter, the Star of David sewn on the sleeve, you scare people into toeing the line. It is not a very high-minded principle.

The problem is that not all union actions are right or smart. Mobs will do crazy things that individuals won't . To me the most vivid example was the Patco strike. The controllers I knew loved their jobs, were well paid and did not want to leave their professions. But they had some crazy leadership and they linked arms and went over the cliff with them. I'd put the CAL strike in very nearly that mold. There were elements of it at EAL too. But the fear of being labeled a scab is powerful stuff, and a necessary tool if unions are going to achieve full "loyalty".

I never got put in that position so I never had to make that decision. But I never decided that I would automatically follow my union if I thought they were taking us over a cliff.

As for MikeD's "good scab/bad scab" dilemma that is the problem. It is not that easy. That whole mentality is a collectivist mentality that I just can't get comfortable with. There are other loyalties involved here. There is loyalty to company and family that comes into these decisions. That was huge in the CAL strike as many pilots thought they were being asked to sacrifice their careers and their company for an ALPA vendetta against Frank Lorenzo. Anybody who says they know the "right" decision in that case is full of it in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good discussion.

Some people talk of the US turning into a country where we're going to soon need to sign the proverbial "loyality oaths", as it goes, with the various political leadership reps we have or might have. Could it be said that with unions and some of the tactics they employ, they're already at that stage? Could it be said the same with management?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Some people talk of the US turning into a country where we're going to soon need to sign the proverbial "loyality oaths", as it goes, with the various political leadership reps we have or might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey! Sounds like a topic debated over at arguepolitics!
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some people talk of the US turning into a country where we're going to soon need to sign the proverbial "loyality oaths", as it goes, with the various political leadership reps we have or might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey! Sounds like a topic debated over at arguepolitics!
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I know, I know....I'm trying to desperately keep it aviation oriented, though, and keep the sidebars to a minimum.
smile.gif
 
Forgive my ingorance, but can one be an airline pilot without joining the union? I know that in certain states, such as PA, if I work at a Union shop, I must join the union, regardless of my preference. (Yet another reason I don't like them.)

G
 
[ QUOTE ]
Forgive my ingorance, but can one be an airline pilot without joining the union? I know that in certain states, such as PA, if I work at a Union shop, I must join the union, regardless of my preference. (Yet another reason I don't like them.)

G

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to join, but you'll pay a 'contract maintenance fee' equal to union dues. And you should!

Everyone bashes ALPA up until the day they call ALPA Aeromedical when they bust their medical or talks trash until they bend an airplane and dial up the Accident Hotline.
 
At UPS you must join the union. I think my dues are well worth the return.

At DL, you can choose to not join the union but you still have to pay the same union dues, and you gain the benefit of the same contract, as if you were in the union.
 
Kind of like moving into a landscaped, clean neighborhood and refusing to pay the HOA fees...
 
"But I am glad that the animosity is there."

How do you feel about the "Freedom list"? How much animosity is there towards the initial Freedom guys?
 
[ QUOTE ]

Everyone bases ALPA up until the day they call ALPA Aeromedical when they bust their medical or talks trash until they bend an airplane and dial up the Accident Hotline.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point... Most people just see ALPA as a giant collective barganing agent. But the interlying services it makes available to it's members are well worth the dues.

As far as the scab list is concerned, I think it's presence should not be shunned. It is a useful teaching tool to show people entering this industry how the descisons you make will follow you for the rest of your career. There are two types of scabs on that list. You have the Scabs that were already employed and crossed, and you have the Scabs that got hired for the specific purpose of Scabbing.

Now that United captain that wrote that artice fell into that latter category, TWICE. That is incredible. When Wein pilots stuck over the hire/fire policy in 1977, she decided she woud undermine thier efforts and cross to fly. Well after the WAA pilots came back to work in 1979, she had to hit the streets. Management had no love for the scabs, they lost all of thier seniority and she was furloughed indefinately. Now when she got "hired" (As a Scab) at UAL in 1985, she was able to retain her seniority and hire date, much like the CAL scabs in 1983. I can assure you for the past 20 years she has been flying in a very silent cockpit.

Thats something to consider, if ever you are faced with having to decide to walk or cross, think of the rest of your career and how the pilots that walked will treat you. Some forget, but many do not.
 
[ QUOTE ]
How do you feel about the "Freedom list"? How much animosity is there towards the initial Freedom guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me started on that one.
banghead.gif
That slowed my upgrade by about 6 months, the equivalent of roughly $13,000.00.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Forgive my ingorance, but can one be an airline pilot without joining the union?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am curious about this too. I realize that some airlines do not have unions, but if you are employed by one which does, is it necessary to join? Then if that union strikes and you, a non-union member, crosses the line, is your name going on that scab list? Somehow, I suspect so.

I understand the historical reason for unions and collective barganing, but I think that some of the tactics used by unions to coerce their members, the fear of being put on a scab list for example, is just as bad as anything management does.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am curious about this too. I realize that some airlines do not have unions, but if you are employed by one which does, is it necessary to join?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the company. Either way you're paying the same dues, but don't have access to the aeromedical, accident and legal divisions without paying big fees I think.

[ QUOTE ]
Then if that union strikes and you, a non-union member, crosses the line, is your name going on that scab list? Somehow, I suspect so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the historical reason for unions and collective barganing, but I think that some of the tactics used by unions to coerce their members, the fear of being put on a scab list for example, is just as bad as anything management does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read "Flying the Line" available at Amazon.com.

And an important thing to realize is that an airline always gets the union it deserves.
 
"Flying The Line" 1 & 2 as well as "Hard Landing" (Book about the demise of Eastern and Lorenzo) Should be required reading. All excellent books.
 
I wish people could have known "Bog" when he was just a business major and some of the views on unions and compare/contrast to his views now!

I've worked for a non-union carrier before and trust me, it's not pretty.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top