Southwest lands at wrong airport?

jgheggie said:
Even with a visual I have always been taught to brief it. That still includes final approach course/heading.
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I'd be awfully surprised if the SWA SOPs don't say something similar. The problem is that your 10,000th landing is different from your 100th landing. It's just human nature, can't be helped. Have you ever, I dunno, loaded the dishwasher, say, for the 10,000th time and left out the soap? I know I have. Of course, loading the dishwasher without soap just gets you some wet, dirty plates.

BUT. You can put an alarm on the dishwasher that says "HEY DUMBASS, ADD SOAP" and before long it'll be just like the seatbelt chime in your car (ok, my car, anyway, I'm old). Just another background noise. Somewhere, someone will still get some dirty dishes wet.

You can add all the "failsafes" you like, but the reason we even HAVE pilots is to be the final, actual failsafe. To be aware and parallel-processing at all times. Basically because they still have hair on their necks to stand up rather than just a rote set of conditions to meet. IMHO, that is where the efforts of our "training culture/profession/whatever" should be focused. It's a lot harder to put numbers on, and it's certainly a lot more nebulous in terms of figuring out whether it's effective or not, but, in the end, we're still there for a reason. So let's all spend our time and energy getting better at it (again, not just the cockpit crew, but top-down, all of us). That's why they pay us the big bucks! Hoho! ;)
 
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Minuteman said:
I'm kind of surprised an untowered airport with a 3738 ft runway and no commercial FBO has airstairs.
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I thought the same thing, but according to the article a southwest crew was sent over from Branson to meet the flight. Maybe they brought them?? Would be difficult to move those large stairs across town I would think...??
 
jgheggie said:
Do you airline pilots "brief" visual approaches?

Even with a visual I have always been taught to brief it. That still includes final approach course/heading.
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What final approach course is there for a visual approach? Or do you mean the runway the visual is going to? Because a course/heading may be 5 or more degrees off from the actual runway number. Visual approach isn't necessarily a course/heading.

Autothrust Blue said:
"This is a visual to runway 25L, it's backed up by the ILS, 109.9, 251, ..."
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What if there is no instrument approach to said runway?
 
Richman said:
Wow, is there a sale of broad paint brushes at the Home Despot on Holier-than-thou Lane today?

If I were y'all, I'd get to rapping on the closest natural cellulose surface.

Richman
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Absolutely right.


One of the most important moments of an internship I did at one legacy airline was one day as I was rummaging through the desk they gave me and finding an actual signed copy of a termination letter of the captain of a high-profile wrong airport landing, an air force base instead of a quiet midwest town outstation.

I had 200 hours total time at that point and I read the letter over and over again.

It just seemed incredible to me that I had just finished all of my training and was deemed a 'commercial pilot' by the FAA and here was someone with decades flying experience who, to me at the time, seemingly made an error that I could have made just as easily in a 172.

Of course there is always a chain of things leading up to the final event, as there absolutely was in that one and there surely was in this one too.
 
MikeD said:
What final approach course is there for a visual approach? Or do you mean the runway the visual is going to? Because a course/heading may be 5 or more degrees off from the actual runway number. Visual approach isn't necessarily a course/heading.



What if there is no instrument approach to said runway?
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That is exactly what I mean. Brief the heading you should be facing on final. Check it with compass/HI. That is something I have always done and have been taught to do. And in this event the runway they landed on was more than 20 degrees off of the runway they should have landed on. That is a very noticeable difference if you were to brief the "visual" and heading.

Besides...how many airports with commercial service/airline service do not have an instrument approach? I'm not being a smart***, I'm actually curious. Is it fairly common for the smaller airports serviced by some regionals?
 
Nick said:
One of the most important moments of an internship I did at one legacy airline was one day as I was rummaging through the desk they gave me and finding an actual signed copy of a termination letter of the captain of a high-profile wrong airport landing, an air force base instead of a quiet midwest town outstation.
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When the crew of a DC-9 landed at an Air Force Base 20 miles short of their destination due to running out of fuel, when their plane hadn't been refueled at its outstation; I don't believe they were terminated. Suspended, yes, but not terminated.
 
MikeD said:
What final approach course is there for a visual approach? Or do you mean the runway the visual is going to? Because a course/heading may be 5 or more degrees off from the actual runway number. Visual approach isn't necessarily a course/heading.



What if there is no instrument approach to said runway?
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Visual backed up by the visual is how I brief it, then.

I usually draw a magenta line out from the runway end using the FMS--especially late at night and in non radar environments, so that there's something to back up my eyes and brains with. Your technique may vary.


AFIS LINK ACK
 
It's not illegal, as far as I'm aware, but it must be vanishingly uncommon, I should think, as having 121 service to an airport with no IAP would introduce a degree of uncertainty to "the numbers" that no bean-counter would approve.

Again, though, the availability of an IAP oughtn't (in my opinion) mean that one feels obligated to use it every time. If you can't land in VMC without an IAP, the problem isn't on the ground. I mean, sure, if it's there, punch it in! Why not? But that's kind of not the point, at least as I conceive it.
 
jgheggie said:
That is exactly what I mean. Brief the heading you should be facing on final. Check it with compass/HI. That is something I have always done and have been taught to do. And in this event the runway they landed on was more than 20 degrees off of the runway they should have landed on. That is a very noticeable difference if you were to brief the "visual" and heading.
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Makes sense. "Course" just threw me off for a bit, because I don't associate a "course" with anything where there's no formal course guidance. Heading, as you write it, makes more sense in the general idea of "visual to runway 25", means that your HSI will be somewhere in the very close ballpark of 250. :)

Besides...how many airports with commercial service/airline service do not have an instrument approach? I'm not being a smartass, I'm actually curious. Is it fairly common for the smaller airports serviced by some regionals?
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I've seen a few that don't, or are out of service often at small airports. My point is, to not be dependant on course guidance from a navaid. Planes have been landing from visual approaches since the Wright Brothers. Doing the above that you mention with brief the runway and rough final heading, should be sufficient without further guidance crutches.

As an aside, I find it amusing that many are pushing extra automation to prevent these things from happening, while some at the same time criticize Airbus planes for being "too automated". :D
 
MikeD said:
Makes sense. "Course" just threw me off for a bit, because I don't associate a "course" with anything where there's no formal course guidance. Heading, as you write it, makes more sense in the general idea of "visual to runway 25", means that your HSI will be somewhere in the very close ballpark of 250. :)



I've seen a few that don't, or are out of service often at small airports. My point is, to not be dependant on course guidance from a navaid. Planes have been landing from visual approaches since the Wright Brothers. Doing the above that you mention with brief the runway and rough final heading, should be sufficient without further guidance crutches.

As an aside, I find it amusing that many are pushing extra automation to prevent these things from happening, while some at the same time criticize Airbus planes for being "too automated". :D
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I agree

My point was simply just double checking yourself. You should still be able to take a plane to the numbers without vertical guidance. Reference the Asiana incident at sfo this past year.

But we were all taught to use any and all resources available to us. If that means punching in an ILS or plotting a magenta line to back you up on a visual...then job well done.
 
It's much the same as backing yourself up with a VOR when shooting an ILS if available. In my low time experience I have actually lost The ILS while past FAF in IMC. VOR backup kept me sane while I went miss
 
With all the recent "landed at the wrong airport" stories, one has to wonder why they continue to happen? I am much more vigilant these days since all the recent high profile attention on this issue. Without blaming, we have to ask why this continues to happen?

Most, if not all airports are identifiable in some form or another, so why do we have tendencies to see one and then just head for it without questioning our assumptions? We all know that's risky, yet it still happens.

These are likely good pilots with good records. If they did it, we could do it. As pilots, we are the last line of defense... We are the ones that will ultimately save our own asses. As such, we need to examine and critique our own standards, procedures and limitations and make sure you do everything possible, every single time, to avoid this story having your name in it.

If you're throwing rocks, you're wasting time you could be investing in yourself.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Also, ye olde VFR sectional will tell you that the town of Branson is a few miles removed from the intended destination airport, not right up on it.
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I might occasionally glance at a sectional at my current job, but when I was flying a jet? Uh, no. I mean they're in there for legal reasons, but I've never seen one that wasn't totally dusty. Let's be realistic, here. Flying around at 250 knots in a little pilot-room with a lot of switches, there's only time to do so much. I think there's maybe a bit of magical thinking going on in this thread. I'm not in any way saying that there weren't some stupid-pilot-tricks going on here...because I've no idea, and neither do you. But as a broader question of how the system works (or doesn't), 99.99% of guys flying jets aren't unfolding the sectional and looking for landmarks. The skills transfer, yes, and they're important skills to learn, but the day-to-day operation of the appliance is rather different...rather a LOT different, it turns out.
 
airport.jpg

Maybe I can market a new instrument:
 
MikeD said:
When the crew of a DC-9 landed at an Air Force Base 20 miles short of their destination due to running out of fuel, when their plane hadn't been refueled at its outstation; I don't believe they were terminated. Suspended, yes, but not terminated.
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They were I believe, suspended initially and then both were fired. (wait......we are talking about the NWA flight? That was an AB that mistakenly landed at Ellsworth, or is this another incident that you are referring to- I am confused)
 
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