South Florida ATC delays

[Plata]

Last month I did a trip through South Florida and on to the Caribbean and encountered a 3 hour EDCT delay. Yesterday I did the return trip and by good fortune avoided most of the impacts caused by whatever ATC issue had occurred in Miami (not sure, think it was a Miami center equipment failure). I get the sense that Florida is a bottle neck and it may never work smoothly, but there’s probably times when it’s best to avoid Florida (or be mentally prepared for problems).

Can any South Florida controllers weigh in with advice on how best to plan trips (or, said another way, how to help the client choose dates and times that are less likely to encounter delays)?

 

[Wardogg]

I heard someone in the KC Center sector trying to go to Florida last week and the controller was telling them they were restricted to FL190. Couldn't get any higher between here and there.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Flew out of KEYW yesterday - while not quite a meltdown, things weren't smooth either.

 

[pwttogfk]

Even with my normally low expectations Florida managed to fail yesterday. Mess was an understatement at Naples.

 

[nabbyfan]

I work on the west coast, but what I was told by a friend who works down there was that ZMA had a nearly 10k operation day, and ERAM ran out of discrete codes to assign, and thats what caused the nationwide groundstop. The computers basically couldn't accept any more A/C within ZMA airspace....Ive never seen or heard of that before.

Like 9-10 years ago, someone at ZLA put a U2 at FL600 orbiting the entire west coast as just OTP in the altitude window, and it completely crashed ZLA's ERAM because it was trying to send the flight plan of the U2 to every adjacent facility over and over, and it crashed the system.

The main issues at the Florida Centers, especially ZJX, is just controller staffing. As pilots, you guys think of it as just ZJX as a whole, but in reality, its divided into 5-6 "Areas", that for all intents and purposes are their own facilties. Controllers only work the few sectors in their own "Area", and are not qualified to work in any other area. The FAA has let it get to a point where certain areas within Enroute facilities are beyond critically staffed, and rely on ungodly amounts of OT to run. 1-2 controllers calling in sick can completely tube an Area like that, and limit their ability to open sectors that need to be open, especially w high volume and Tstorms.

Lets say Area 1 is negotiated to have 11 people there on a day shift, to run 6 sectors that would ideally all be open. The FAA has bungled the staffing so badly over the last 30 years, that they are only able to publish the schedule with 6 people on it, and 3 of those 6 people are on OT on what is supposed to be their day off. 2 of those 3 OT people are exhausted, have life going on outside of work, and call in sick for their OT. Area 1 now has 4 people, when they are supposed to have 11. They still ideally need 6 sectors open to run their traffic. You can do the math to see that thats not going to work, and thats where some of these crazy delays over the last year through Florida have come from. Its completely untenable and IMO only going to get worse. There are Enroute areas within the FAA where staffing is so bad, it is getting hard to train new controllers because they cant afford to lose a body to be an instructor. Its wild.

 

[Plata]

I work on the west coast, but what I was told by a friend who works down there was that ZMA had a nearly 10k operation day, and ERAM ran out of discrete codes to assign, and thats what caused the nationwide groundstop. The computers basically couldn't accept any more A/C within ZMA airspace....Ive never seen or heard of that before.

Like 9-10 years ago, someone at ZLA put a U2 at FL600 orbiting the entire west coast as just OTP in the altitude window, and it completely crashed ZLA's ERAM because it was trying to send the flight plan of the U2 to every adjacent facility over and over, and it crashed the system.

The main issues at the Florida Centers, especially ZJX, is just controller staffing. As pilots, you guys think of it as just ZJX as a whole, but in reality, its divided into 5-6 "Areas", that for all intents and purposes are their own facilties. Controllers only work the few sectors in their own "Area", and are not qualified to work in any other area. The FAA has let it get to a point where certain areas within Enroute facilities are beyond critically staffed, and rely on ungodly amounts of OT to run. 1-2 controllers calling in sick can completely tube an Area like that, and limit their ability to open sectors that need to be open, especially w high volume and Tstorms.

Lets say Area 1 is negotiated to have 11 people there on a day shift, to run 6 sectors that would ideally all be open. The FAA has bungled the staffing so badly over the last 30 years, that they are only able to publish the schedule with 6 people on it, and 3 of those 6 people are on OT on what is supposed to be their day off. 2 of those 3 OT people are exhausted, have life going on outside of work, and call in sick for their OT. Area 1 now has 4 people, when they are supposed to have 11. They still ideally need 6 sectors open to run their traffic. You can do the math to see that thats not going to work, and thats where some of these crazy delays over the last year through Florida have come from. Its completely untenable and IMO only going to get worse. There are Enroute areas within the FAA where staffing is so bad, it is getting hard to train new controllers because they cant afford to lose a body to be an instructor. Its wild.

Thanks for ‘splainin it to me. Had never heard of the discrete code problem before, and did not know that staffing had gotten so bad. Time to extend the retirement age?

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I work on the west coast, but what I was told by a friend who works down there was that ZMA had a nearly 10k operation day, and ERAM ran out of discrete codes to assign, and thats what caused the nationwide groundstop. The computers basically couldn't accept any more A/C within ZMA airspace....Ive never seen or heard of that before.

Heard that on frequency with approach, said they were out of codes and showing 1400 (I don't know what that means). No advisory services for VFR aircraft, which I've never run into over such a wide area. Sometimes, you kind of need that around here (crossing the ADIZ, etc). Couldn't pick up a handoff from approach for a while either (in a debrief?). Anyway, sounds like a crummy day all around.

 

[nabbyfan]

Thanks for ‘splainin it to me. Had never heard of the discrete code problem before, and did not know that staffing had gotten so bad. Time to extend the retirement age?

Yeah, the staffing problem is real bad. At a lot of the busiest facilities nationwide, a majority of the controllers are working mandatory 6 day weeks. It’s crazy.

I actually think the agency is setting themselves up for another Reagan-like staffing crisis when all of this generation retire as soon as they’re eligible, because they’ve made so much in OT and are just so tired that they’re done at 47-48 years old instead of hanging until aging out at 56. But that’s the future FAA’s problem so be damn sure we aren’t gonna address that at all haha.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I work on the west coast, but what I was told by a friend who works down there was that ZMA had a nearly 10k operation day, and ERAM ran out of discrete codes to assign, and thats what caused the nationwide groundstop. The computers basically couldn't accept any more A/C within ZMA airspace....Ive never seen or heard of that before.

Like 9-10 years ago, someone at ZLA put a U2 at FL600 orbiting the entire west coast as just OTP in the altitude window, and it completely crashed ZLA's ERAM because it was trying to send the flight plan of the U2 to every adjacent facility over and over, and it crashed the system.

The main issues at the Florida Centers, especially ZJX, is just controller staffing. As pilots, you guys think of it as just ZJX as a whole, but in reality, its divided into 5-6 "Areas", that for all intents and purposes are their own facilties. Controllers only work the few sectors in their own "Area", and are not qualified to work in any other area. The FAA has let it get to a point where certain areas within Enroute facilities are beyond critically staffed, and rely on ungodly amounts of OT to run. 1-2 controllers calling in sick can completely tube an Area like that, and limit their ability to open sectors that need to be open, especially w high volume and Tstorms.

Lets say Area 1 is negotiated to have 11 people there on a day shift, to run 6 sectors that would ideally all be open. The FAA has bungled the staffing so badly over the last 30 years, that they are only able to publish the schedule with 6 people on it, and 3 of those 6 people are on OT on what is supposed to be their day off. 2 of those 3 OT people are exhausted, have life going on outside of work, and call in sick for their OT. Area 1 now has 4 people, when they are supposed to have 11. They still ideally need 6 sectors open to run their traffic. You can do the math to see that thats not going to work, and thats where some of these crazy delays over the last year through Florida have come from. Its completely untenable and IMO only going to get worse. There are Enroute areas within the FAA where staffing is so bad, it is getting hard to train new controllers because they cant afford to lose a body to be an instructor. Its wild.

This is what N90 has been dealing with since the 90’s. My area has 9 scopes plus FD, plus coordinator, plus CIC. We are supposed to have 15 people per shift. We are lucky if we have 7. On weekends it’s typical for the day shift to have 3-4. And we only have 2 supervisors so that means usually a CPC is needed for CIC. I worked almost 900 hours of OT in 2022 and that was with taking all of June off for parental leave.

 

[Plata]

This is what N90 has been dealing with since the 90’s. My area has scopes plus FD, plus coordinator, plus CIC. We are supposed to have 15 people per shift. We are lucky if we have 7. On weekends it’s typical for the day shift to have 3-4. And we only have 2 supervisors so that means usually a CPC is needed for CIC. I worked almost 900 hours of OT in 2022 and that was with taking all of June off for parental leave.

I think I’d like to have your paycheck, but I know I wouldn’t want to work the hours necessary to receive it. Nine hundred hours of OT is incomprehensible to me.

 

[Roger Roger]

So how do you fix it? Would even raising the pay attract enough applicants that can actually make it through training and qualification? If you can get enough bodies on scopes does the job get easier and reduce the washout rate? I just think at this point the airspace and traffic loads are such a •show that you’ll never get enough people who can hack and who want the job.

 

[Plata]

A follow-up question for @nabbyfan and @NovemberEcho: does the FAA share historical or forecast demand levels so I can help my clients pick travel days or travel periods that will fall at lower demand dates?

 

[NovemberEcho]

A follow-up question for @nabbyfan and @NovemberEcho: does the FAA share historical or forecast demand levels so I can help my clients pick travel days or travel periods that will fall at lower demand dates?

I don’t know, but if they’re trying to fly to TEB the answer should always be “don’t.”

 

[pwttogfk]

I don’t know, but if they’re trying to fly to TEB the answer should always be “don’t.”

Even Sully said “unable” to TEB.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Even Sully said “unable” to TEB.

I will say, on average, and wx not being a factor, thursdays and Sunday’s are the busiest.

 

[Plata]

I found this while searching for historical and forecast volumes. @nabbyfan and @NovemberEcho, I’m sure you’ll be pleased to know that the FAA feels staffing levels are well above what’s needed per the Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan 2022/2031

 

[ahw01]

Heard that on frequency with approach, said they were out of codes and showing 1400 (I don't know what that means). No advisory services for VFR aircraft, which I've never run into over such a wide area. Sometimes, you kind of need that around here (crossing the ADIZ, etc). Couldn't pick up a handoff from approach for a while either (in a debrief?). Anyway, sounds like a crummy day all around.

Air Traffic Software Glitch Leads To Multiple Florida Ground Stops - AVweb

 

[NovemberEcho]

I found this while searching for historical and forecast volumes. @nabbyfan and @NovemberEcho, I’m sure you’ll be pleased to know that the FAA feels staffing levels are well above what’s needed per the Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan 2022/2031
View attachment 68859

The FAA can suck my taint

 

[///AMG]

I worked almost 900 hours of OT in 2022 and that was with taking all of June off for parental leave.

Good lord. I mean I am glad that you are being reimbursed for your time, but that is crazy. Is this some sort of "mandatory OT" deal?

 

[Flyinthrew]

The real question for any east coast pilot is "Do I want to de-ice or do I want to go to Florida?" Horns of a dilemma. I personally choose Latin America where I can go somewhere warm and also skip Florida in favor of Houston.

West coast is fine, too, but our crew meal contract language makes me not want to do it all that much. The price of food does not get better once one gets to California.