SOME GROUND RULES

J

jetman

New Member
Hi /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I will be sharing some X-Country time with other pilots at the local flying club,since i dont know any of this pilots and never flown before with any of them i would like to have some general rules regarding safety and how this flights should be conducted,some kind of agreement or 'ground rules'.For instance what would the role be for the NFP?
what happen if once in flight there is desagreement as to how to deal with an emergency?
Im wondering if some of you that may have share flying time dealt with this issue .Thanks a lot
 
I've never shared time with anybody else, but as far as the emergency situation goes, you should designate who will be the PIC (as well as all other duties) before the flight takes place. IMHO, if you feel that you won't be able to trust the decision that the other pilot might make, you may want to reconsider flying with them. Don't takeoff without all questions answered and issues settled. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I highly recommend in an emergency situation to use CRM. I'd designate the pilot in the left seat as the person who flys, does all the memory items, etc. and the person in the right seat in charge of the radio's, transponder, and reading the appropriate checklists aloud.

And, if for any reason you don't feel comfortable... don't go on the flight.
 
You really need to sit down with the other pilot and go over PF/PNF roles before you even set foot in the airplane. I've done some of this style flying with another pilot, and it worked out great. PF would fly, and PNF would handle nav/comms, as well as brief the PF on important enroute items. This system makes normal flying more efficient, as well as ensure that both of you know your roles during an emergency. As for checklists, we did them challenge/response, which worked out great as well.

A big item that I stress is that PIC should make it very clear who is flying the aircraft should an emergency occur. I personally do this during the pre-takeoff brief, just to ensure that everyone's on the same page prior to departure. You don't want two pilots grappling for the controls when the engine quits.
 
Watch out too if you're the more experienced pilot. I've heard stories of the most experienced flight instructor sitting in the back and the FAA went after him as the PIC when something went wrong because he was the most experienced one in the group. Make sure you put it in writing beforehand who is PIC for each leg just to cover your a>>
 
We had a discussion in the CFI forum a few weeks back on exactly that. I think we came to the conclusion that the FAA is most likely not going to violate a guy sitting in the back if he did nothing to contribute to the accident. That thread is here: http://jetcareers.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=186361&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

The biggest thing I worry about is if I'm the senior certificate holder (not necessary most experience, as I've found out), the other pilot will rely on me for saving their hide if something should happen. For example, I recently flew with a guy that has 300 hours (I have ~270) and a Private-ASEL, IA. He kept asking me for advice during a flight that I was not giving instruction on. Not cool. Again, it really helps to brief roles/responsibilities before you go, and make sure it's drilled into their head.
 
As most people have already said, decide and understand before you get inside the airplane.

If I'm PNF, I will generally handle the nav equipment, time keeping, route information, and chart management. Sometimes I'll even have to jump in and grab the radio (if they missed it). I'll also help them with the external portion of the preflight, though I like to ask them to give it a once over too. It's especially helpful when you have to add oil or grab some extras, maybe call for fuel too.

I also tell them that it's their flight and that they are PIC. Don't hesitate to tell me to shutup, stop, and to help with this or that.
 
I would be cautious as to how you log PIC x country in a "spliting time," non dual given / dual recieved situation. (ie. two private pilots, one under the hood and one safety pilot.)

Reg interpritations seem to vary from person to person, & maybe even at your local FSDO, so take this for what it is worth.

My understanding is that when two pilots, not doing instruction, go on a cross country, both can log PIC as long as one is under the hood. But only the flying pilot, typically the one under the hood, can also log the x-country time. The safety pilot only logs PIC and TTime etc.

This seems to be the local consensus in our area some DE's, and pilots. I had an instrument student, who had flown as safety pilot for part of his 50 hours x-country PIC requirement. The DE sent hime home & had him fly an additional flight or two, before he could take the test, to make his total x-country PIC 50 hrs without the time he acted as safety pilot.

I'm not against doing the safety pilot thing, just be careful how you log the x-country time.
 
Also the only way you can log pic while acting as safety pilot is if you are also acting pic... meaning anything you guys do wrong is on your cert.

Lots of people think you can strap on a hood and everyone gets to log time; that's basically the jist of it but it's also the faa and is therefore more complicated than that.
 
I did a lot of safety pilot stuff while working on my instrument with another pilot. Here's the way we broke it down:

PF - flies the airplane, plane and simple. Also has the final say on any options given to us by weather or ATC.
PNF - handles navs, comms, charts, checklists. In case of an emergency, he runs the checklists will the PF flies the plane. Can offer input and discussions on options, but the PF has final say so on which options to take.

BTW, you will get frustrated as a PNF with the other guy. Not a big deal, he'll probably just do some stuff you either wouldn't do or it's just plane (heh) crazy. As long as it isn't a safety issue, in the intrest of civility, I just let it go. If it's a safety issue, I'll smack him with my kneeboard.
 
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Watch out too if you're the more experienced pilot. I've heard stories of the most experienced flight instructor sitting in the back and the FAA went after him as the PIC when something went wrong because he was the most experienced one in the group. Make sure you put it in writing beforehand who is PIC for each leg just to cover your a>>

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Maybe, but not always the case.

My Commercial rating instructor was riding along as a friend in a Cherokee 235 with a guy (who we'll call "Bob") who wanted to do touch and go's.

On takeoff from one, the engine quit. They were at about 100 ft. or so at the time with runway remaining.

Bob froze.

My instructor took the controls and got it back on the ground, but there was very little runway left and they ran off and into a ditch sheering off the nose and one of the mains - also bent the prop pretty good.

The cause of the loss of power? Fuel starvation. Bob forgot to switch from the aux's to the main tanks.

The F.A.A. ruled that Bob was responsible as he was PIC and my instructor was in no way liable as, in their eyes, he was merely along as a passenger.
 
Maybe then its just an urban legend that floats around in ground school classes...

they ought to put it on that show that my fiancee watches on TLC where they expose urban legends to be real or fake. The rest of the stuff on that channel is total garbage though i don't know how she can stand it.
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Maybe so.

It may have happened in other cases, which is why my buddy was terrified of being cited. But when he received the call (2 or 3 days after the incident), he was more than relieved.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Watch out too if you're the more experienced pilot. I've heard stories of the most experienced flight instructor sitting in the back and the FAA went after him as the PIC when something went wrong because he was the most experienced one in the group. Make sure you put it in writing beforehand who is PIC for each leg just to cover your a>>

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I can not possibly see how that could even be close to true because the PIC is determined before the flight takes off and by definition the PIC is solely responsibly for the safety of the flight no matter who else is on that plane. If it is true then there is a serious flaw in the system.

I do know that a CFI can be held responsible for a solo student, but that is the only time soemone can be held responsible for someone else's mishap.
 
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