Some APA members considering switch to ALPA

Seeing 13,000-plus new members filter in and realize "Hey! We're a big voting bloc!" could be amazing or not amazing.
 
Derg said:
Seeing 13,000-plus new members filter in and realize "Hey! We're a big voting bloc!" could be amazing or not amazing.
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I'd guess DAL, UAL and FDX would be slightly less than pleased to have to give up their voting power.
 
It won't make any difference what so ever.

1. The contract is done and Parker will not reopen it, unless he gets some real relief in areas the company wants, like Scope. American pilots will be lower paid until the next contract and that is all there is to it.

2. It does not change the nature of bargaining and it won't magically change the situation or increase leverage. APA has been independent long enough that elements of the contract are different from previous ALPA style language. There will be a very steep learning curve for the leadership at Herndon to understand how these changes came about.

3. There will be a new sign on the door, the employees will work for ALPA national not the MEC chair or anyone in Dallas, and there will be constraints on what can and cannot be done. The ALPA Constitution and Bylaws would govern, No contractual change could occur with the Signature of the National President and unless the new MEC opts to vote on the matter of ratification requiring membership ratification,changes to the working agreement and new contracts can be done at he MEC level.

ALPA has good safety and training schools, but they are in effect a McDonalds franchise. The lawyers run things in Herndon. Shortly after ALPA is on the property everyone will figure out that being a Rep is a chump job but being a standing committee chairman means you may only fly one trip a month and get lot's of ALPA flight pay loss and other goodies.
I watched people working towards that coveted National Job, or National Committee chair which effectively means you don't have to fly, that seems to be their career goal.

What is more telling, sickening, and still puzzling is the strong rank and file interest in protecting scope, and ALPA national's lack of foresight in allowing the introduction of the RJ in the first place. Once upon a time Delta thought the RJ would be a great idea and the Delta MEC agreed. So of Delta with ALPA's blessing and ordered a lot of CRJ-200's flown by Comair. After all this was designed to put US Airways out of business, so it was good for Delta Pilots. American was the only airline to hold the line on Scope to the best they could. American had the most restrictive scope language of all the majors and ALPA stood by while the RJ devastated the careers of many mainline pilots and made hollow promises to regional pilots.

It was ALPA's biggest mistake and they will still not own up to it. Now they want all eyes on discount foreign carriers. Who cares about regional pilots? The Frankenstein Monster RJ captain they created will be the guy who will take the B787 job in FLL and go up against the $300K Delta, United and American wide-body guys. What goes around comes around.

ALPA is a purely political animal, and does what is the most expedient depending on what the dominant group wants at the time. They have made some real blunders following that strategy.
 
Zapphod Beblebrox said:
It won't make any difference what so ever.

1. The contract is done and Parker will not reopen it, unless he gets some real relief in areas the company wants, like Scope. American pilots will be lower paid until the next contract and that is all there is to it.

2. It does not change the nature of bargaining and it won't magically change the situation or increase leverage. APA has been independent long enough that elements of the contract are different from previous ALPA style language. There will be a very steep learning curve for the leadership at Herndon to understand how these changes came about.

3. There will be a new sign on the door, the employees will work for ALPA national not the MEC chair or anyone in Dallas, and there will be constraints on what can and cannot be done. The ALPA Constitution and Bylaws would govern, No contractual change could occur with the Signature of the National President and unless the new MEC opts to vote on the matter of ratification requiring membership ratification,changes to the working agreement and new contracts can be done at he MEC level.

ALPA has good safety and training schools, but they are in effect a McDonalds franchise. The lawyers run things in Herndon. Shortly after ALPA is on the property everyone will figure out that being a Rep is a chump job but being a standing committee chairman means you may only fly one trip a month and get lot's of ALPA flight pay loss and other goodies.
I watched people working towards that coveted National Job, or National Committee chair which effectively means you don't have to fly, that seems to be their career goal.

What is more telling, sickening, and still puzzling is the strong rank and file interest in protecting scope, and ALPA national's lack of foresight in allowing the introduction of the RJ in the first place. Once upon a time Delta thought the RJ would be a great idea and the Delta MEC agreed. So of Delta with ALPA's blessing and ordered a lot of CRJ-200's flown by Comair. After all this was designed to put US Airways out of business, so it was good for Delta Pilots. American was the only airline to hold the line on Scope to the best they could. American had the most restrictive scope language of all the majors and ALPA stood by while the RJ devastated the careers of many mainline pilots and made hollow promises to regional pilots.

It was ALPA's biggest mistake and they will still not own up to it. Now they want all eyes on discount foreign carriers. Who cares about regional pilots? The Frankenstein Monster RJ captain they created will be the guy who will take the B787 job in FLL and go up against the $300K Delta, United and American wide-body guys. What goes around comes around.

ALPA is a purely political animal, and does what is the most expedient depending on what the dominant group wants at the time. They have made some real blunders following that strategy.
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I disagree that ALPA hasn't realized the effect of the RJs... Despite what is going on at the regionals, things are moving in the correct direction industry wide in that regard. I do believe, more or less, scope choke is working and the regional model as it stands now cannot stand another two years.
 
mastermags said:
I disagree that ALPA hasn't realized the effect of the RJs... Despite what is going on at the regionals, things are moving in the correct direction industry wide in that regard. I do believe, more or less, scope choke is working and the regional model as it stands now cannot stand another two years.
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The problem with you analysis is that Doug Parker and his former partner Scott Kirby, now at United understand the dynamics all too well. When Scott Kirby was confronted by APA CLT reps in the hallway after a company "Crew News" video chat, and asked about contractual improvements APA rates in line with UA/ Delta the answer without the slightest hesitation on Krby's part was SCOPE!

ALPA has a history of fixing things with the lives of junior pilots. Have a problem, throw another junior pilot on the fire and that will fix things.
 
Zapphod Beblebrox said:
Once upon a time Delta thought the RJ would be a great idea and the Delta MEC agreed.
Click to expand...

You do know that there was a letter from ALPA National urging the Delta MEC to not agree to the scope change, right?

But more power at the local airline level is a good thing I guess, huh?
 
Zapphod Beblebrox said:
The problem with you analysis is that Doug Parker and his former partner Scott Kirby, now at United understand the dynamics all too well. When Scott Kirby was confronted by APA CLT reps in the hallway after a company "Crew News" video chat, and asked about contractual improvements APA rates in line with UA/ Delta the answer without the slightest hesitation on Krby's part was SCOPE!

ALPA has a history of fixing things with the lives of junior pilots. Have a problem, throw another junior pilot on the fire and that will fix things.
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You are saying my analysis is wrong because Parker doesn't agree with it? That could be simply poor vision.
 
An answer to to criticisms:

1. Parker knows that the pilot's want more money. He thinks he might be able to get scope relief for a raise? I don't think so but that would be the price. The fact that he wants it is significant.

2. As far as ALPA Herndon and "fee for service" carriers, they can't even say regional airline, they are locking the doors long after the horses have left the barn. I started in this industry before there was such a thing as an RJ. I saw the rise of Comair, and the others with my own eyes. The new Large RJ's will make the A-319 a regional airliner, if they are allowed to go that way a thing of the past. The new C3000 is a 737 / A319 replacement.

I point this out because company that breaks scope starts and avalanche that will not be stopped. ALPA screwed the pooch in the past and I don't see them standing up to scope. Why is it not their number one or number two issue for the next decade? Why don't they declare it for everyone to see. Draw the line in the sand now.

I agree with you both that the times may be different now. There is a legitimate pilot shortage, but management wants to put bigger airplanes on the regional side and any union has to stand strong and make it crystal clear that scope is not for sale. An ALPA letter is not quite there... How making it job one?

If you protect those jobs at the bottom, and provide for reasonable career advancement, those folks are less likely to jump ship for the new discount international carriers that will come. Norwegian is just the beginning... ALPA for once get on the leading edge of this and understand what is taught Marine Corps, and other services.. "Loyalty down leads to loyalty up."
 
BobDDuck said:
You do know that there was a letter from ALPA National urging the Delta MEC to not agree to the scope change, right?

But more power at the local airline level is a good thing I guess, huh?
Click to expand...
"Aw, we don't want them little airplanes."
 
Just don't let it be a complete surprise when the flying is offered at a discount rate and that is followed by a significant raise offer if you don't want it. Consider that before one of those is a TA and think about how it affects your career.

I think that it would feel really easy to vote in a huge raise instead of having the ability to upgrade to a 50-100 seater for what I was just making. However, I say that knowing that my goal is to make my paycheck match the paint on my plane. Honestly, I would be just fine with that. It's job security and a move in the right direction. Would I feel the same way if I were a mid-grade to senior widebody FO? I hope so, because I'm trying to keep my philosophy the same. That's me, anyway. The vote that hurts just a little in the short term (as far as upgrade is concerned) would be better in the long run, but it wouldn't mean that the regional model couldn't come back from time to time, depending on circumstances. We live. We learn, but there are others behind us who won't have the perspective we do and there's not much else other than life experience that will change their minds.
 
Most of the guys who are adamant about not having alpa are the ones who still feel they got screwed by them in the east/west battle. I for one, would love to have alpa over this dysfunctional APA we have now.
 
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