Solo Touch and Goes

I'd also like to add to the whole thread - and I think everyone knows this - this is one of those individual preference kinda subjects. There's not really a right or wrong to solo T&Gs.

It IS really interesting though to see all the different viewpoints out there. Kind of takes you outta your little box, ya know? I've always had solos do touch and goes - and so does every CFI at my school. Interesting to see how other people do things.
 
I'm yet to solo a student but during my primary training I never did a stop and go with a taxi back. All the practice in the pattern was T&G both at the big (9000 ft) and small (3000 ft) runways. If my instructor had told me to do them to a full stop with a taxi back, I would have been confused - do I have to talk to ground or only tower, what do I say to them, should I do a full before takeoff after each taxi back, that kind of things which are not completely clrear for a student who has not done them before. My solo was supposed to be 'about 3 T&Gs', so I ended up doing 4 of them. :)
I don't know any school at the field which does full stops with taxi back but of course, I'm not 24/7 there to be completely sure that it never happens. It's interesting to hear that at other places these are treated as such an important 'no-no'. On the other hand I've heard about other schools doing single engine go-around at the airport, while these are prohibited below 3,000 AGL for us. :confused:
 
In fact, I even do something especially crazy...I've never limited students to three times around the pattern on their first solo.

There are instructors that don't let their students do any more than 3 landings on their first solo!?! See I just learned something new about uptight instructors! Thats unbelievable...I'd like to hear the justification for that one.

(I bet it's "because I'm not getting paid to watch them land")

Do you find most students will do ONLY three even though you say it's okay to do more if they feel comfortable? I have, and it's weird.

Yeah I've had a few students like this, they were the nervous ones. But the next time they do 5 and then 7 and then...
 
Thats unbelievable...I'd like to hear the justification for that one.

(I bet it's "because I'm not getting paid to watch them land")


Naw... Honestly I bet it's just a combination of institutional memory and inbreeding.
 
There are instructors that don't let their students do any more than 3 landings on their first solo!?! See I just learned something new about uptight instructors! Thats unbelievable...I'd like to hear the justification for that one.

(I bet it's "because I'm not getting paid to watch them land")
First of all, I =do= get paid to watch them land.

I'm not sure if anyone indicated that they "don't let their students do any more than 3 landings on their first solo" any more than anyone suggested that they force their students to do 3 landings on their first solo.
 
First of all, I =do= get paid to watch them land.

I'm not sure if anyone indicated that they "don't let their students do any more than 3 landings on their first solo" any more than anyone suggested that they force their students to do 3 landings on their first solo.

Well, with the CPC course, I believe that it requires the student to perform 3 t&g's with the instructor onboard (acceptable pattern/landings) before allowing the student to solo (as a part of the same flight). And, this is on the day of the solo for that student. In other words, if the student and the instructor are on the same page and have talked about the student soloing within the last few flights, and the student performs 3 t&g's to acceptable standards...the instructor grabs the hand-held radio and gets out of the plane. The student then does the 3 t&g's. In a traffic pattern with a decent number of other planes, this will take up about 1.0-1.4 on the hobbs. And, this is the normal lesson timeframe for the school that I solo'd at. And, this is how they did things.

I am not a CFI, and I am just curious as to if the 3 t&g's with the instructor onboard is something that is some sort of standard? That is, before the instructor hops out of the plane and lets the student go and do the 3 t&g's? Or, is this a CPC or local flight school thing?

Thanks gurus
 
You can't separate the two...With an hour of training, most student pilots can safely make turns in either direction, but they are unlikely to safely perform aileron rolls.
Certainly you can. Turns vs. aileron rolls = two different maneuvers. Touch and goes are a single maneuver and has a fairly wide margin of safety. How a person is trained to perform a T&G and the conditions he/she is allowed to perform one is the broad subject.

The FAA data shown earlier shows 64% of the training accidents were loss of control on landing or attributed to xwinds. Neither of these are specific to T&Gs. If the planes you sited were "lost" due to landing or xwind errors (never specified) they would have happened whether it was a T&G or not. If an instructor fails to teach a student a calm, well planned procedure and allows him to hastily "rush" through a cleanup and jump back in the air, the student is set up for problems. Likewise if a student is allowed to practice them with 25kt xwinds. More information on your cases would be needed to be objective.
 
Do you find most students will do ONLY three even though you say it's okay to do more if they feel comfortable? I have, and it's weird.

Actually, I've seen it all over the place. I don't think I've ever had anybody do less than three, but I know a few guys did 4 and another guy did 7.

Then again, I gotta be on the side of the runway with a radio for those initial solos, so if they decided to do 15 I might get a little irked, especially if I have some beer waiting for me at home. :)

Another one of my quirks...I never let the student see me standing by the runway until they're in the air. I'll get out of the plane, ask them if they're ok to go, then say, "Ok, I'll be inside--give me a call on the radio if you have any problems. Have fun!"

Then I'll walk inside and won't come back out until they're at the end of the runway getting ready to takeoff.

This comes from my first solo. I solo'd at a big airport where you couldn't see any of the runways from the FBO, so my CFI actually did stay inside the whole time. Watching him walk away and leave me to be completely and totally by myself really made me realize it was ALL me in charge. I try to replicate that feeling for my students.
 
There are instructors that don't let their students do any more than 3 landings on their first solo!?! See I just learned something new about uptight instructors! Thats unbelievable...I'd like to hear the justification for that one.

(I bet it's "because I'm not getting paid to watch them land")

Nope, as far as I know it doesn't have anything to do with pay. It's an issue of, "The first solo can be overwhelming, I wouldn't want them to get in over their head, they should just take it slow and not try to push the limits too much their first time out..." and on and on.

Personally, I completely disagree. I always hear this kind of thing from instructors whom I consider to be overprotective. They're the same ones who are grabby on the controls and make students scared of their own shadow.

But while I call them "overprotective," they probably say I'm reckless, so who knows what's right and wrong. It's just not my way of doing things.
 
I am not a CFI, and I am just curious as to if the 3 t&g's with the instructor onboard is something that is some sort of standard? That is, before the instructor hops out of the plane and lets the student go and do the 3 t&g's? Or, is this a CPC or local flight school thing?

It might be included in the syllabus of some 141 schools, I don't know. My only experience is with Part 61 training and in the Part 61 world it's more tradition than anything else.

I do it because I know everybody has "off" days and I want to make sure my student isn't having one of those days on the day they solo. I'll tell them I want to go around the pattern three or four times before I get out, then I'll usually get out after one or two laps unless they're having a hard time for some reason.
 
The FAA data shown earlier shows 64% of the training accidents were loss of control on landing or attributed to xwinds. Neither of these are specific to T&Gs.
Oh? Do the FAA data break out touch and go landings vs full-stop?

There are differences. A touch & go is busier than a full-stop landing, because the pilot is occupied by cleaning up the airplane and re-accelerating towards takeoff speed. This division of attention lends itself to a sloppiness in directional control, something I can sometimes see in rated pilots.

The more complex an activity, the higher the probability of screwing it up, for any fixed level of skill, a fact that should be self-evident. The only thing that's really debatable is whether the increase in probability of an accident is significant or not. I don't know the answer to that.

The details of the accidents at my flight school aren't relevant; the students lost directional control while doing touch & go's. Whatever the conditions which may have existed at the time, many people felt that the students might have been more attentive to controlling the aircraft had that been their sole objective, rather than trying to take off again.

Training issue? Yes, of course, every pilot error is a training issue. Soloing students is about sending half-trained pilots out to gain more experience under controlled conditions. For any maneuver, they have a higher probability of screwing it up than a pilot with more experience. We must accept that if we accept the concept of a student solo. It's not unreasonable to improve the odds by restricting them from the activities where the chances of failure are highest.

I am not arguing in favor of preventing students from touch & go's, I'm only arguing that it's a reasonable restriction. Personally, I'm happy to have my students do T&G's, but they generally have 20+ hours before they solo.
 
I had no idea how uptight most CFIs and Flight Schools were about things like this until I started reading web-forums.

I let my students do T+Gs on their first solo's if they wanted to. Getting ready to solo mostly all of the landings are T+Gs to get the most landing practice per hour so why would you change it up on them for their solo? We are talking tricycle gear and no big crosswind here right?


Side Hijack: Do any of you CFI's make your students get a paper signed at cross country destinations to 'prove' they completed the flight?

...a few of them used to show up at my airport asking me to sign something and I couldn't believe it.
that would have been a good idea for my one student. on his solo to the practice area i heard from another student that he went out there and just flew in a circle for 1.5 hours because he didn't want to do the maneuvers
 
I do it because I know everybody has "off" days and I want to make sure my student isn't having one of those days on the day they solo. I'll tell them I want to go around the pattern three or four times before I get out.

I always did a few landings prior to the first solo as well (Part 61). I never told my students they were going to solo, after a landing or two and a go around I would tell them to take me to the FBO and talk to them about the solo while they were taking me back to the ramp.

I also never stood at the runway, you really can't do anything from there!:laff: I would go inside and wait until they were out there about to takeoff and then just walk out onto the ramp. It wasn't a big airport, so I could see all I needed to see from the chair right outside.
 
Oh? Do the FAA data break out touch and go landings vs full-stop?
That was actually my point. It isn't possible to have reliable "T&G statistics" because accidents that happen in the landing/rollout phase are counted as "landing accidents." The maneuver itself isn't the issue, it is the way that the student handle the situation.

We seem to be pulling on the same side of the rope, just looking at it from different angles. I agree with your analysis.
 
From a student pilot, I never do solo touch and gos at my airport, it's 2400 ft with trees at both ends. I've done them with my instructor, but that's usually with a good headwind. The day I soloed, everyone I look up to at the airport was out there. My instructor walked out of the plane, told me to do 3 to a full stop and he'd be listening on the radio. I did the 3 best landings I had ever done, and I was happy to end it on a perfect greaser with everyone watching.
 
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