Solo Endorsement Missing

Websterpilot

Websterpilot

Well-Known Member
Hi folks,

I recently picked up a student from a different flight school who currently meets all of of the private pilot requirements. However there is a problem. He has the correct solo endorsements in his logbook, but his student pilot certificate endorsements are all sorts of messed up. He has an initial solo endorsement followed by 3 more, which seem to be 90 day re-endorsements from several years ago; all from the same CFI. He is completely missing his solo x-country endorsement on the certificate. .

Basically, I see this raising red flags with the DPE come checkride time. I understand it's possibly to see if he can get his old CFI to backdate the proper endorsement, which I'm sure isn't the most correct/legal way to fix this, but might be the best way. Keep in mind that this was several years ago and that the student moved due to changing employment. I have no idea what the chances are that the student can even track down his old CFI to do so.

Any opinions on this predicament? If he wasn't technically legal for the solo x-country work, does it still count towards meeting the requirements? My boss says that he doesn't care how I fix it, but to just fix it. The thing is, I really don't want to put myself in hot water by doing something sketchy in the FAA's eyes.
 
Websterpilot said:
Hi folks,

I recently picked up a student from a different flight school who currently meets all of of the private pilot requirements. However there is a problem. He has the correct solo endorsements in his logbook, but his student pilot certificate endorsements are all sorts of messed up. He has an initial solo endorsement followed by 3 more, which seem to be 90 day re-endorsements from several years ago; all from the same CFI. He is completely missing his solo x-country endorsement on the certificate. .

Basically, I see this raising red flags with the DPE come checkride time. I understand it's possibly to see if he can get his old CFI to backdate the proper endorsement, which I'm sure isn't the most correct/legal way to fix this, but might be the best way. Keep in mind that this was several years ago and that the student moved due to changing employment. I have no idea what the chances are that the student can even track down his old CFI to do so.

Any opinions on this predicament? If he wasn't technically legal for the solo x-country work, does it still count towards meeting the requirements? My boss says that he doesn't care how I fix it, but to just fix it. The thing is, I really don't want to put myself in hot water by doing something sketchy in the FAA's eyes.
Click to expand...
I don't have any advice, since this is a strange scenario, but agreed, don't do anything to risk your certificates because of someone else's error. It's kind of worrying your boss has that attitude. Just be sure not to let him push you into something illegal or you're not comfortable doing in order to have a quick solution.
 
Call the DPE you plan on using and ask what he wants you to do.

Guess what? I'm missing now-required PPL endorsements, because when I learned to fly back in the Stone Age, things weren't always done perfectly.

He flew the X/C, so the endorsement is probably moot at this point. Getting a letter faxed from the original CFI would probably suffice.
 
Why is it your job to "fix" this?

Tell the student he's missing required endorsements, suggest he get the previous CFI to fix his errors or you'll need to repeat the training if you are to provide the endorsements.

Dont stick your neck out for other people on stupid crap like this.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! I agree, not worth putting my butt on the line because someone else screwed up. I'll see what the DPE prefers as well as see if I can't get in contact with the student's old CFI. Worst case, I'll have my student repeat the training.
 
rframe said:
Why is it your job to "fix" this?

Tell the student he's missing required endorsements, suggest he get the previous CFI to fix his errors or you'll need to repeat the training if you are to provide the endorsements.
Click to expand...

Well, it isn't a required endorsement for a PPL checkride, it is required for a solo X/C. Any number of legitimate ways to have a solo X/C without a solo X/C endorsement.

But if you look at 61.65E, it is clear (and in bold) that a solo X/C endorsement does not go on a student pilot certificate. So it shouldn't be there anyway. It is a logbook endorsement that must merely "be kept in a manner acceptable to the administrator." Could have been kept anywhere, but isn't really relevant after the flight is accomplished.

As you are the one signing him off for a checkride, it is in fact you that is responsible for making sure he has the proper experience and endorsements.

The text of the 61.65E endorsements is a suggestion anyway - no legal requirement the wording be exact. "The purpose for this advisory circular is to provide guidance and to encourage standardization among instructors. "

A logbook entry "solo to KABC ok" would technically suffice.

17. Solo cross-country flight: section 61.93(c)(2).
NOTE: This is done before each solo cross-country flight and may be
accomplished by any instructor who reviews the flight planning. This
endorsement is made in the student’s logbook.
Click to expand...
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Well, it isn't a required endorsement for a PPL checkride, it is required for a solo X/C. Any number of legitimate ways to have a solo X/C without a solo X/C endorsement.

But if you look at 61.65E, it is clear (and in bold) that a solo X/C endorsement does not go on a student pilot certificate....
Click to expand...

61.93(c)(1) sure looks like it's required to me.

(c) Endorsements for solo cross-country
flights. Except as specified in paragraph
(b)(2) of this section, a student pilot
must have the endorsements prescribed
in this paragraph for each cross-country flight:
(1) Student pilot certificate endorsement. A student pilot must have a solo
cross-country endorsement from the authorized instructor who conducted
the training, and that endorsement
must be placed on that person’s student pilot certificate for the specific
category of aircraft to be flown.
(2) Logbook endorsement. (i) A student
pilot must have a solo cross-country
endorsement from an authorized instructor that is placed in the student
pilot’s logbook for the specific make
and model of aircraft to be flown.
(ii) For each cross-country flight, the
authorized instructor who reviews the
cross-country planning must make an
endorsement in the person’s logbook
after reviewing that person’s cross-
country planning
 
Good points. I guess I'm still trying to figure out if the student's x-country flights count towards meeting the requirements if his certificate wasn't endorsed? Having the logbook endorsements technically proves that the flights were in fact authorized, just not properly, correct?
 
Websterpilot said:
Good points. I guess I'm still trying to figure out if the student's x-country flights count towards meeting the requirements if his certificate wasn't endorsed? Having the logbook endorsements technically proves that the flights were in fact authorized, just not properly, correct?
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Was the solo in question less than 50nm? If so, pretty sure only the 61.87 so endorsement is required.

The long solo x/c technically should be identical in both the logbook and certificate, so I'd ask your DPE if they care that it is only in one place. Or lose the student pilot cert and go to the FSDO for another one :)

(2) Repeated specific solo cross-country flights may be made to another airport that is within 50 nautical miles of the airport from which the flight originated, provided—
(i) The authorized instructor has given the student flight training in both directions over the route, including entering and exiting the traffic patterns, takeoffs, and landings at the airports to be used;
(ii) The authorized instructor who gave the training has endorsed the student's logbook certifying that the student is proficient to make such flights;
(iii) The student has a solo flight endorsement in accordance with § 61.87 of this part; and
(iv) The student has a solo cross country flight endorsement in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section; however, for repeated solo cross country flights to another airport within 50 nautical miles from which the flight originated, separate endorsements are not required to be made for each flight.
(c) Endorsements for solo cross-country flights. Except as specified in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, a student pilot must have the endorsements prescribed in this paragraph for each cross-country flight:
Click to expand...
 
Websterpilot said:
He has an initial solo endorsement followed by 3 more, which seem to be 90 day re-endorsements from several years ago; all from the same CFI.
Click to expand...

This just solved your problem. Student Pilot Certificates expire after 24-60 months. So you need to get a new one anyway if it has been a few years.
 
Thanks for the info DB. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do a XC with the student anyways, so that I can verify his proficiency prior to signing him off. I've known a lot of students who freeze on diversions because they have never had to do one before; odd but a good thing to check none the less.
 
The way I understand it, the lack of endorsement shouldn't hinder him from taking the checkride or using the time to meet the requirements. NOTE: the following isn't an official opinion, consult your local FSDO and/or DPE...

...However, if the time is in the logbook, and meets the requirements, its legal to use.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.​

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

Here's the exception to the bolded text. The solo cross-country is not 61.87, it is 61.93. If his endorsement was legal under 61.87, then the PIC time is legal. The cross country time? Part 61.51 does say that a student pilot must carry a student pilot certificate, but it does not discuss logging of cross country time, the cross-country definitions for general XC, and XC to be used for each cert and rating, being found in 61.1.

Ok, so in conclusion, you have a conundrum, because the previous CFI was an idiot.
 
Websterpilot said:
My boss says that he doesn't care how I fix it, but to just fix it. The thing is, I really don't want to put myself in hot water by doing something sketchy in the FAA's eyes.
Click to expand...

I've allowed myself to be pressured into uncomfortable situations before. Tell your boss to fix it himself.
 
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