So Did I Pass ??

Hey I'm with ya Alchemy. Taking control is fine but you're the DE and going to sign off someone saying they can do it. But if the chance to "do it" comes into play you take the controls. Huh?? If the student is totally freaking and can't handle it thats one thing...and after the crash they should be failed... but if they are ok then let them go. And who says you need a TOTALLY FLAT field to land in. You can bounce a 172 into damn near any piece of real estate and be ok
 
What if there are no survivors?

Look at it from the DEs viewpoint. Here is a guy with thousands of hours sitting next to a person with 40. They just met and the "new" pilot is already a bit nervous. The DE has no idea if this person can even land a plane period.


I got my private in a 172 and have never bounced the plane one time.
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Totally kidding...i've done my fair share of bouncing 150s, 152s, and 172s.

You are right about not landing on a flat field. I've landed on a couple of grass strips that weren't in the best of shape.
 
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Totally kidding...i've done my fair share of bouncing 150s, 152s, and 172s.

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If there are no survivors well...then it doesn't really matter who was pic
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I'm sorry, but in just about any emergency situation I'm handing the flight controls over to the most experienced pilot in the cockpit.

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Tell that to Captain Al Haynes, of United Airlines flight 232. I think that the most experienced pilot should manage the emergency, but the most effective way to do that may or may not be to actually fly the airplane.

It may be more effective for the most experienced pilot to determine if a restart is possible, advise ATC as to the nature of the emergency and location, and help the other pilot select a suitable landing area....
 
Well thats a little different than having an engine failure with a primary student, or a vaccum failure with an instrument student or something like that.
 
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Well thats a little different than having an engine failure with a primary student, or a vaccum failure with an instrument student or something like that.

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Point well taken...
 
When it gets to the point of flight line captains vs. training captains, like it was for Al Haynes, the point of "who should fly the airplane" is pretty much moot. Actually, everyone on United 232 probably had exactly the same amount of experience flying a DC-10 with nothing but differential thrust from two engines and trim....0.0 hours. In any event, didn't the training captain end up controlling the throttles on final on that flight? Those guys should be on an even playing field anyway. I don't claim to be an expert in CRM, but I'll bet that most of the time an FO will surrender the flight controls to the captain during an emergency situation, time permitting. That's not to say that in certain specific situations where the FO and Capt are more even in terms of experience, and/or where, because of time constraints, an exchange of control is not practical, it might be better for the FO to retain control. However, I believe it's best to put the plane in the hands of the most experienced pilot in the cockpit, if it's possible to do so. The capt/CFI/DE is gonna have some serious 'splainin to do to the chief if the FO/student/applicant botches an emergency situation that would've obviously had a better outcome had the capt/CFI/DE taken the flight controls.
 
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There is no such thing as a BIG emergency and a little emergency. If there is a problem, there is a problem.

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I'd have to disagree.....engine failure at 8000 AGL on a clear VMC day with plenty of nice, long big green fields or an airport right below me is not a "BIG" emergency. It definitely comes with a pucker factor and should not be taken lightly, but it's very survivable, and you know you're gonna live through it if you don't make a big mistake. I wouldn't even squawk 7700 in that situation. I might call out "pan pan" on frequency, but would not see a need to transmit mayday. I would consider letting a commercial student retain the flight controls for training and experiences sake, just to see how they would handle themselves, but definitely would take the controls immediately from a student pilot. I would take over from even the advanced student when it got to crunch time below 2000 AGL or so.

I once had a an engine cowl fly open on the takeoff roll in a twin.....my CFI gave me a few seconds to see if I would abort the takeoff before on my own he shouted "CLOSE THE THROTTLES". I learned a lot more that way than I would've had my CFI immediately reached over and closed the throttles on his own, and considering the 12,000 ft runway we were on, safety was not compromised....

An Engine Failure at less than 3000 AGL with oil on the windshiled, smoke in the cockpit, flames coming out of the cowling, and the engine rattling like it's about to come off its mounts is a "BIG" emergency. Losing pitch, roll, or yaw control is a "BIG" emergency. These are situations where I would immediately tell my student "I have the flight controls".
 
My Life......My Controls!!!!!! (Assuming I'm the DE vs. the 40 hour wonder pilot)

Just because the report said it was a green field doesn't mean it was a smooth green field. There could have been furrows, tall crops, potholes, boulders, etc... You can see even in this case the very experienced DE managed to nose it over. They are both VERY LUCKY neither one was hurt. If the DE could tip it on landing, would you still be willing to trust the student pilot to give it a shot?

By the way most examiners I have ever met have learned in old Cubs and early Cessna's flying out of grass strips. I'm not saying this is the case with this guy, but he probably does have some soft field experience...and almost certainly more than the student.
 
I agree that emergencies in a commercial jet are in a different league. The captain and FO are (probably) both seasoned pilots with plenty of experience. The captain has the final say, but the FO might be doing what he says. Its more of a coach with an assisstant coach. They both have input but the captain has the final say in any matter.


I personally believe pilots are reluctant to declare emergencies. Some pilots have a "I got what it takes" mentallity. (i'm not flaming anyone, just thinking out loud) If I am in a twin and have an engine out, I am going to declare an emergency. If the airport authority rolls the fire trucks or whatever, so be it. Thats what these people are there for. If my life or my passenger's life is in any kind of iminent danger, I am not going to "play" down the situation. I know that the likelihood of landing a light twin with an engine out is very good, the bar is still raised and options (go around) are limited.

Just my $.02
 
I have done my fair share of instructing in a hands on environment(not aviation related). None of us were in the DE's shoes. He assessed the situation and felt he needed to take the controls. It was his call. He was the one that could determine if this was a BIG emergency. As a not-yet pilot, it sure sounds like one to me.

I always allowed my students to deal with the casualty and if they were not taking the right steps or were not handling the situation as quickly as they should, I took over. In addition, if he problem was significantly complex that it was too difficult to think through my students actions and understand what was happening, I took the controls.

In this case, I say the DE was there so we should respect his judgement.
 
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(Assuming I'm the DE vs. the 40 hour wonder pilot)

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Hey, watch it...I was one of those 40-hour wonders to which you refer...
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(Assuming I'm the DE vs. the 40 hour wonder pilot)

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Hey, watch it...I was one of those 40-hour wonders to which you refer...
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Weren't we all?
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(Assuming I'm the DE vs. the 40 hour wonder pilot)

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Hey, watch it...I was one of those 40-hour wonders to which you refer...
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Weren't we all?
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Speak for yourself.....hehehehehe
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