So are the discount airlines going to kill Delta?

[Kristie]

[ QUOTE ]
Its not the pilots, FA, Mechs, A/C, low-fare carriers...its managment.
If managments takes a pay cut then you know that its bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
that's what I think is correct...

even though i'm not a pilot, take a look at my company (KM engineers) - we're in the red BIG TIME.. and all of the offices have been getting hit hard over the past 6 months...our arizona office (where i work) is being called the "backbone of all the offices because we "should be doing better in phx's better economy vs the rest of the nation"... we have about 7 offices nationwide... they were all in the red at the beginning of the year, now only 2 of them are in the red up over $400,000 (and we're in the 4th quarter)... we've been hit hard with layoffs, had our free cokes/snackies taken away (no big thing to me but still)... have been asked to work harder for free (utilization rates went up 5% which means I personally have to work an extra 5-10 hrs per week for no pay)... any salary employees lose any possibility of overtime (that includes me).. we lost our company xmas party and are now doing a potluck picnic thing being paid by the employees, we will receive absolutely zero for a bonus whereas it would usually be about 1-1/2 times our bi-weekly check and i betcha at the end of the year, our office manager will get a six figure bonus because it's been known that "that's how they operate the business".. technically, our bonus's are included in the cost to the client for each project - so now KM is going to take that and call it profit??!! suxs!

they're just now putting the other offices on alert for closure - after an ENTIRE YEAR AND A HALF of no profit from these offices....

now - at the beginning of the year, we (arizona office) hired a crapload of overhead people (marketing/business development/IT staff since firing the old IT staff and figuring out that wasn't the best overall idea)... added 2 new suites and all NEW furniture for those suites (now, those two suites are being subletted and the furniture is just a wasted expense)...this is after the economy starts going down too....

I didn't hire the new guys nor decide to go with 2 suites/furniture at the beginning of the year - but apparently, it costed our arizona office a ton of money... our office manager did that and is he paying for it? no - we are....

who gets the crap end of the deal? the production staff and the people that actually DO the work to GET the clients...just like any airline, of course... everyone who does the work gets the crap and everyone whose upper management just keeps telling them the bad news taking a fat check home to their families to buy xmas presents....what a joke!

you'd be surprised at what the morale is like here now - everyone thinks they're the next to go cuz we keep hearing one bad email after another...no one is working overtime because "its just not right"...

back when i was hired (1-1/2 yrs ago) the company used to be like delta ("work to live not live to work) and now there's absolutely zero company loyalty because they fired people that had been with the company over 5 years and kept the overhead people..and we'll still get no bonuses.. if i find out that any single office manager, CEO or upper management people took a bonus at all this year - they'll be losing my talent!

but there's a good example for you!! even though it's not totally related to airline - it's related business wise...

 

[derg]

Honey, KM is probably a lot like DAL. If you can cut costs in your department, you're given a bonus directly related to such.

 

[Swabby]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'd rather work for tips like a waiter or a cabby.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree Doug. Assume a Song B757 is flying from JFK-FLL and back with 170 pax onboard paying $250 for a round trip. Tip the pilots 15% and that comes out to $6375 for 5 hours of flying. The pilots pay the flight attendants $50/hr and that comes out to $1000 for the flight attendants and that leaves $5375 for the captain and first officer to split 60/40, or $3225 and $2150 respectively for a 5 hour trip. Assume the average pilot, including reserves and those in training, actually only blocks 45 hours a month on average, that would bring a monthly pay out of $29,025 for a captain and $19,350 for the first officer. The average captain would bring home $348,300/year and the average first officer $232,200/year. Not bad.

 

[Kristie]

that's probably exactly what's going on and all i can tell you is that all it does - is piss people off and you end up losing some greatly talented people that really like doing what they do...

 

[MQAAord]

Why is it that FAs get tips and pilots don't? Maybe if we put a tip jar outside the cockpit door.



[/ QUOTE ]

We're told in new-hire school that we're not supposed to accept tips.

Yeah, but when you make $10.75/hr (what I made as an Eagle new-hire 8 years ago) like you're not gonna take every dollar that comes your way!

 

[derg]

Besides, during a break in spraying bugs outside, just to entertain myself, I looked up a round trip ticket from PHX to BWI from Dec 2 to Dec 5 on "Low Cost Carriers" and those evil legacy "High Cost Carriers"

The lowest Delta fare: "High" cost carrier

$238

The lowest SWA fare: "Low" cost carrier

$405.50

The lowest AWA fare: "Low" cost carrier

$279

The lowest Frontier fare: "Low" cost carrier (solvent)

$220

The lowest Jet Blue fare: "Low" cost carrier (solvent)

$0 (can't do it)

The lowest United Airlines fare: "High" cost carrier (bankrupcy)

$317

The lowest American Airlines fare: "High" cost carrier(solvent/threatened bankrupcy)

$306

The lowest Northwest Airlines fare: "High" cost carrier (solvent)

$319

The lowest USAirways fare: "High" cost carrier (bankruptcy)

$236

 

[vipermcg]

If you book in advance, the major's can be the same price if not cheaper than the LCC's. I know people who don't even compare prices when booking a trip. They automatically go to Jetblue.com, assuming it will be the lowest. When I went down to Florida last summer, American was must cheaper than B6. The LCC's have the big advantage if you want to book a trip late. It would be interesting to do what Doug did, but making your trip from October 25th to October 28th.

 

[xdashdriver]

OK, it's Oct 22, 2003. I searched for flights from PHX to BWI departing on Oct 23, returning Oct 24. I searched using Expedia and the airline's own website booking service. Here are the results:


The lowest Delta fare: "High" cost carrier

$301

The lowest SWA fare: "Low" cost carrier

$299

The lowest AWA fare: "Low" cost carrier

$598

The lowest Frontier fare: "Low" cost carrier (solvent)

$473

The lowest Jet Blue fare: "Low" cost carrier (solvent)

$Can't do it

The lowest United Airlines fare: "High" cost carrier (bankrupcy)

$827

The lowest American Airlines fare: "High" cost carrier(solvent/threatened bankrupcy)

$1,092

The lowest Northwest Airlines fare: "High" cost carrier (solvent)

$303

The lowest USAirways fare: "High" cost carrier (bankruptcy)

$294

One more I found:

The Lowest Continental fare:

$298

Ray

 

[derg]

However, in you add in load factors, that would be much more telling why last minute fares are high.

If XYZ has a last minute fare of $1000 but ABC Air has a fare of $400, it's a little deeper.

XYZ's flight might be full, but if you really want to go they'll take your $1000 and bump a lower fare passenger to the next flight.

If ABC has tons of seats open, they'll most likely keep the price at a level that might entice a last minute passenger.

 

[kellwolf]

I know the hightest one way fare on SWA is $299 (and probably add in the bajillion taxes and fees on top of that). I have no idea how many seats are set aside at the discounted $49 or so fare. I do know that on certain busy days of the year, Rapid Rewards tickets are blacked out.

 

[naunga]

Interesting that according to this survey it's the airlines doing the worst financially that are the most uncomfortable.

Most Unconfortable Airline Seats

Again, I'm not bashing anybodies employer. I just am puzzled at the assumption that by paying the employees less more customers will arrive that the company's door.

Naunga

 

[mpenguin1]

Just for fun, I looked up fair from LGB/LAX to JFK & here is what I found, oh yeah, depart on 01-Dec & return 15-Dec. I guess the question to ask who is making money off of the fares?

LGB-JFk

Jetblue - $202
AW - $290
AA - $315

LAX - JFK

Soutwest $202 (Islip)
U/A - $311
AA - $385
US Air - $385
Delta - $391

 

[tonyw]

Why don't the whining crybabies just shut up and take this man's attitude?

Michael McNeil, a health-education coordinator for a university in Philadelphia, who argued that our demands are unreasonable. "I see commercial airlines as companies that I pay to transport me from one place to another," McNeil says. "They are not there to feed me, pamper me, or cater to my every whim. They provide me with safe transport from point 'A' to point 'B' — and I thank them for it."

And I've got some real contempt for the crybabies whining about UAL's non e-plus coach seating.

Shut up!

You want the extra room, then pay for it like I do, either by flying enough to get it or by paying the refundable coach fare.

Otherwise, take your $200 transcon flight paying butt on to the back of the bus and be happy that you're flying at all for that price.

People need to stop asking for filet mignon for the price of a McDonald's Big Mac.

 

[naunga]

While I agree that people must be realistic about what they can get for their money, wouldn't you agree that today's airline market is much different that what it used to be?

And given that fact the airlines (or any company for that matter) can longer afford to say, "if you don't like the way we do business go someplace else!".

Although there are certain industries who can afford to do this, but generally they are either pretty much the only game in town or they don't deal with the general public.

All the airlines (majors and LCC's) are trying to do more with less.

[ QUOTE ]
paying the refundable coach fare.

[/ QUOTE ]
I question this logic as well. Last time I flew on a major, I only saw two types of seats: First class and coach. The refundable coach fare doesn't appear to get you a more comfortable seat. It just gives you the ability to change your plans without penalty.

People only, IMO, want two things when it comes to airline travel:

1. To be treated in a civilized manner. That doesn't make them feel like they are a burden to the company.

2. To be somewhat comfortable.

And I can tell you that failing on of those points will be percieved as a failure on both.

Finally, I question the logic of punishing those people who choose to fly coach. The argument of, "well your first class passengers make up the bulk of an airlines revenue" I expect is false, as well as, "business travelers are big revenue generators for airlines and they always fly first (or business) class." Even though the first class seat costs more than the coach seat, there are at least twice as many coach seats as there are first class seats on most airliners, that also assumes that everyone in first class, paid for the first class seat. As a side note, if you assume that the extra services in first class (free drinks, nicer meals, etc.) are part of the fare that each first class passenger paid, if a passenger uses frequent flier miles to upgrade, that would seem to indicate that the airline is losing money on that upgrader. Which might explain why one must accumulate so many miles in order to get an upgrade. Anyhow, back to my main point. Most business travelers (at least at my company) are required to fly coach (unless you're an executive or have an upgrade certificate). I expect that this is true for most large corporations. Obviously this is good business, you're already paying more for a refundable ticket, so there is no good reason to pay even more to be in first class.

So considering all that, it is fair to say that the major portions of an airline's revenue is generated by those passengers that are treated the worst. It would appear that these "crybabies" are starting to realize this fact and are making their wishes clear by taking their business elsewhere.

One more observation, it has been stated that the majors were in trouble long before 9/11. So this decline in profitability is something that has been going on for some time.

Oh, and...

[ QUOTE ]
"They are not there to feed me, pamper me, or cater to my every whim. They provide me with safe transport from point 'A' to point 'B'"

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the mindset that the flying public is operating on (in general). They've made this realization and most of them don't even have a college education. So that's why they fly with whoever has the lowest fare. That's why they don't care about things like first class, and the reason they do complain is that when the fare gets above a certain point (and I would say that point differs from person to person) they do not see what their getting for their money, apart from a seat on the "bus" (as you put it). That is also why the concept of brand loyalty IMO is declining in the airline industry. There have even been several stories in the news about the worthlessness of frequent flier miles. This might also explain why several frequent flier program have either started "bonus miles" for things like using an echeck-in kiosk, or buying a ticket online.

I mean think about this, I have an NWA WorldPerks check and cash card from my bank. NWA requires something like 20,000 miles for a free coach ticket. I earn 1 mile for every $2 I spend with that card. So assuming I don't fly very often and get the bulk of my miles from my card, I would have to spend $40,000 to get one coach ticket. On NWA you earn a minimum of 500 miles per flight or the actual milage flown. So that means I need to make at least 40 flights that are less than or equal to 500 miles. Assuming a middle of the road fare of $300, if I choose to fly my way to a free ticket that means that I pay $12,000 for that free ticket. Now granted that's a considerable savings over using the bank card alone, but still a lot of money for a $300 ticket that is loaded with restrictions. You'd have to fly about 3 times a month for a year in order to get that free flight. Granted other programs function differently, but I can tell you right now. Given the time it takes to earn anything on NWA and that they don't always have the lowest fare. The frequent flier program isn't a motivation for me or my company to use NWA on a regular basis. In fact my company has negotiated fare agreements with several airlines, but still require us to use the cheapest fare regarless of the existence of any agreement (of course we also have two jets that sit idle most of the time too...didn't say we were smart, but we must be doing something right since the stock price is up).

Just some observations.

Naunga

 

[davetheflyer]

With respect to ticket prices, projections for the ACA narrowbody ticket costs (for IAD - FMY in this example) are from $70-130. An advantage that we will have is that our fares will be based on availability and not advance purchase.

This is from the 10-23 webcast and slideshow at atlanticcoast.com.

 

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
And given that fact the airlines (or any company for that matter) can longer afford to say, "if you don't like the way we do business go someplace else!".

[/ QUOTE ]

Southwest does it. If you get on their blacklist, they send you a note that gives you the numbers of the other airlines and says, here, call them, you're no longer welcome to fly with us.

I do it, too. I've been know to say, you know what, I've got clients who spend ten times what you do who take one percent of the effort you do. You contracted for a certain thing, I've given you much more than that, and no, I am not going to comply with your "simple" request that will cost us more to fulfill than your entire contract is worth!

[ QUOTE ]
The refundable coach fare doesn't appear to get you a more comfortable seat. It just gives you the ability to change your plans without penalty.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're notice that my comment was directed to those who complain about not having enough room on UAL. Here's what they do:

Economy Plus seating
Economy Plus is available on most North America and many international flights. Advance seating assignment in Economy Plus is available on a first-come, first-served basis to the following customers:

* Mileage Plus members who have Mileage Plus Premier status or above.
* Star Alliance Gold and Silver members.
* Customers traveling on fares booked in Y, B or M class.

I think UAL did this one right. They reward their customers who pay the most money for their tickets or who fly the most with them by giving them extra room. Those who buy the $200 transcon tickets to visit Aunt Bessie once or twice a year get the back of the bus and get less room.

As far as treating the customers in a civilized manner, I think that is exactly what happens virtually all of the time.

Oh, sure, you'll hear Aunt Bessie from Omaha whine about how mean they were at XYZ airlines because they didn't let her carry her child car seat on board (where the hell are you going to store it, Aunt Bessie?). Yes, there are some bad apples.

But I've never had less than professional service on any flight I've been on.

Note that I said professional, not obsequious. I think that some people expect the latter, and they're the folks who are probably doing the most whining. They're also the ones who are expecting filet mignon for a Big Mac price.

They've heard too many times from people that "the customer is always right." That's absolute BS. Often, the customer is flat out wrong. A smart business either educates the customer as to why he is wrong or cuts him lose and lets him wreak his havoc at his competitors.

 

[naunga]

[ QUOTE ]
Southwest does it. If you get on their blacklist, they send you a note that gives you the numbers of the other airlines and says, here, call them, you're no longer welcome to fly with us.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's a different issue that what I suggested. I was speaking more about businesses who say for example, "hey you don't liked being crammed into a little seat, then go someplace else we don't need your business".

I certainly agree that if a customer is unreasonable or uncivilized a business should not be expected to continue to accept their business. To say it another way, I see a lot of companies still operating with the attitude of "where else you gonna go?" and like I said, some companies can do that (like where I work, there are literally only about 7 competitors and they don't really even come close to the amount of business we do...I mean to give you an idea we did $1.4 billion in sales last quarter, our biggest competitor did around $977 million. Again not saying this to brag, but just to give you an idea of what I think it takes before you can tell customers to piss off.).

Regarding UAL, you're right they appear to have gotten things right, but again how does this differ from first class on Delta for example? You pay extra money for a bigger seat.

I will argue, however, that UAL isn't "rewarding" anybody with a bigger seat. If you paid for a bigger seat, that's what you get. If you used frequent flier miles you've probably paid for that seat 10 times over. I'll never think that frequent flier programs are a good deal as they are functioning now. The rewards vs. the amount of money spent for those rewards is ridiculously disproportionate.

Again, if I were to travel on UAL for business I'm required to take the seat in the back. That's just my company's policy, and as I said before I suspect that is the policy for most large corporations as well these days. If you have to travel, travel cheap. Of course I never said working for skin flints was fun.

In the end that's what people are looking for. Going back to my example of a ticket from CAK to ATL, I still want to know what Delta is giving me for the extra $45 that AirTran isn't. The law of supply and demand seems to indicate that since an MD-88 is bigger than a 717 the Delta fare should be cheaper than the AirTran ticket because Delta can transport more people on one flight than AirTran can. I do know that it's not that simple, but hopefully you see my point.

I completely agree that the matra of "the customer is always right" is not correct, but rather the mantra of "the cusomer needs to be treated like we appreciate their business is." Professional treatment doesn't really cut it IMO. I have been treated very professionally by employees, and made to feel like it was my fault I had a problem. Like they were trying to say, "well if you had just run faster through the airport you would've made it, and the plane landing 90 seconds before the other one left had nothing to do with it." (that was the AA agent in STL). I was treated very professionally, "yes sir", "no sir", and all that, but the agent was not empathetic to my problems, and I was on the more expensive refundable ticket to boot. Whereas when the same thing happened on the way home on CoEx the agent greeted me with a smile and said, "We're sorry we didn't get you to your connection in time, but I'll get you on the next flight out". All I want (as a former customer service worker) is a little acknowledgement that, "yep we fouled up, we understand that this is annoying, and we'll get it taken care of." If a customer service rep, gives me that, and I'm a pain in the ass, well then I deserve any poor treatment I get.

One more example, my wife and I were coming home from MYR on AirTran. Our flight out was delayed because of weather in MYR, and I mean really delayed by like 6 hours. We got called to the desk, got our new connection from ATL to CAK and a hotel voucher for ATL. We got exactly what we needed from the agent, "we know this is an inconvience, here's what we're doing to correct it.". So I was happy. Everyother person got the same treatment. Yet several people made their displeasure very rudely known (basically they sat by the desk and bad mouthed AirTran and the gate agent for about 3 hours). My wife and I were happy with the service we received and were very much disgusted with the behaviour of the other passengers. A few hours later our name was called again. I went to the desk and was told that because we had been pleasent customers we were flying back to ATL in business class. The jerks got to sit in the back, and the biggest jerk of the group somehow got "randomly" choosen for the pre-boarding cavity search at the hands of the gate agent...hmm wonder why that happened? That's the type of relationship to build with your customers. Treat them courteously and acknowledge it when they return the favor. I'm not saying I need upgraded everytime, most of the time a sincere "thank you for you business" is enough.

In all of these posts I've made several interesting observations (note that none of these are directed at anyone imparticular):

1. Most people agree that cutting pilot pay isn't going to return an airline to profitibility.

2. Some people believe that flying is completely utilitarian and the only difference between Delta and Greyhound is the amount of time it takes to get to your destination.

3. Some people have alluded to the fact that they don't believe that person would truly pay more for a flight on a particular airline that they could get cheaper on another.

4. Some people believe that the leisure traveler is insigificant to the airlines.

5. No one can seem to explain what someone gets when they pay more for a plane ticket than they would've on a different airline.

6. No one really seems to think that the LCC's are a threat to the continued financial viability of the majors.

Again it has been very interesting for me to read these responses. For someone who is interested in getting into airline/airport management it puzzles me as to why it doesn't appear that the airlines are discussing this stuff with their employees (or maybe they are).

Cheers.

Naunga

 

[mpenguin1]

There is no option to pay for a "better coach seat", the only option is to pay for a higher class, domestic, that would be first class. If there was an option to pay for bigger coach seat, I would. People are flocking to a choice, Jetblue, free TV in front of you, Jetblue has one of the highest load factors & it is not just their price.

 

[johnbail]

Until I left my last employer, I had been on a plane for business travel every week since feb 2000. I have read this thread and some of what I see is interisting but look at from a customer point of view. Here is my experience. Every one has a bad day I have had bad and good experience on all of the airlines as to the point systems to tell the truth I give them away the last thing I want to do when I had time off is get back on a plane to travel. What I find funny is I have heard the same customer hating ranting while on an airline. Nothing bothered me more then to sit and listen to the FA and gate agents just say such hateful things about customers. Statements about customers are thrown in earshot of any standing or sitting close to whom ever is venting. A lot of folks do not fly every day and do not know what is going on in the industry. Heck I was in the highest tears of 3 major airlines and did not know. I saw no difference in the way I was treated, some flights where a pleasure some where a nightmare. I did notice I could Jude the flight by the crew not the pilots they where in the front of the plane at least I hope

, but over time you see the same FA’s and gate agents. And sure enough you could lay money down that the some passenger or other event was going to get someone’s nose bent and it was going to be a bad flight. Of course I am rarely awake after take off but with over a million miles in Delta and US-Air and more free drink coupons then a drunk could use with SWA. I say there is not much difference in how you are treated by the company or the price it is the attitude of the FA’s and Gate folks. I am so tired of hearing the comments like the grand mother with the car seat it makes me sick. For most of your passengers this is a big event. They are leaving their homes and putting their lives in the hands of others. The fact that those hands insult them for being confused is just wrong. Yes I have seen rude passengers some that in my IMO should be asked off the plane weather at the gate or not. But most of the folks I over hear being made fun of really did not bring it on them selves.

This is the problem with all of the airlines if you ask me.

 

[naunga]

I've a couple of responses to your post.

First, you make a very interesting point about the frequent flier miles, and that is if you're traveling for business your ticket doesn't come out of your pocket anyway. So earning free tickets doesn't do you all that much good. I will say however, with that many miles you could've spent a lot of time in first class.

Second, yes everyone has a bad day. Customers and employees. When I worked at my company's help desk we did our fair share of mocking people, but there were two rules that you never broke: 1) Never in front of the customer 2) Never treat the customer with anything, but courtesy and respect.

Finally your comment about this being a "big event" is absolutely correct. I think that the people at the airlines have not be taught to realize this. To an FA or a pilot it's business as usual.

But overall you point out that Delta, USAir, SWA, or whoever it doesn't really matter. An airline is an airline. It still doesn't explain to me why 1) Delta (or any other airline) feels that cutting pilot pay will return them to profitibility or 2) What I get for paying a premium price other a different airline.

Naunga