So about that 1500 hour rule...

[form810]

Ben Baldanza was on the Airlines Confidential podcast again today promoting 250 hour FOs. His entire reasoning is that they’ll be flying with Captains who have more than 1500TT in a master and apprentice type of operation.

This guy was CEO of Spirit and worked for a half dozen other airlines and he still doesn’t realize that in the USA, a first officer isn’t an apprenticeship. It’s a partnership. And for it to BE a partnership, we need well qualified, highly trained, and EXPERIENCED, first officers. Not seat warmers.

If it really IS a partnership, then he/you is/are incontrovertibly correct. And yes, then the FOs do need to be fully qual'd.

That said, that mentor/apprenticeship model worked pretty (really) well for a long time. It's a bit like building a bridge. Suspension works great. Arch works equally well. It's when one tries to mix the two design forms that things fall apart.

The big problem we have right now is that we have a whole lot of FOs who have convinced themselves (and, apparently, airlines) that they are qualified partners, while not really being so. Without wanting to be labeled a millennial basher or boomer (neither of which I am), this IS a demographic/inexperience problem that can really only be rectified by more experienced FOs entering into the "system". I haven't flown regionals for 15ish years. Another 2-4 years and I'm not flying mainline airlines either. I'm at ground zero of this. Every month, I literally see and talk to scores of newby applicants for one particular major. It's getting scary.

The good news is, almost all of the newbies know how to push the A/P button to save the day.

 

[form810]

Disagree. The insurance companies have decades of actuarial and loss data. They're no dummies.

Agree that they are not dummies. Disagree that they (the actuaries) are steering the ship. I've had speaks with insurance company execs in which they stated that they are raising rates on aviation to make up for losses in other risk areas (floods, hurricanes, storms, fires, etc, etc). Saying such to anyone, especially a "nice guy" (I'm a great spy) like me, is a huge mistake, Donald. Statements like that are verbal admissions of typically patently illegal behavior. In most states, that kind of behavior is black letter law illegal. Which is part of the bigger picture problem we face. Insurance is typically "regulated" at the individual state level.

 

[form810]

True.

So how about a “more restricted ATP at 500 hrs.”

Problem solved

Or, we could just keep it simple: How about the pilot actually BE "the obvious master of the aircraft" before being signed off perfunctorily and run through the rest of the kabuki dance steps...? Oh, snap! We've already got that one, in several places.

This ATP/1500hr/Blahblahblah problem is so common these days. It's a simple problem of truth vs visuals; a problem of informed and diligent enforcement of existing law vs creating new-wheel/vested-interest law. Or as Pope used to essay about man, a problem of the "great chain of being"... and making sure we've got enough expert/elite/competent/diligent/committed/incorruptible folks around to prevent even just one link in that chain from breaking.

Wait! What? Who the heck is Alexander Pope? Sounds like an ancient limey poofter to me!

 

[BobDDuck]

Or as Pope used to essay about man, a problem of the "great chain of being"... and making sure we've got enough expert/elite/competent/diligent/committed/incorruptible folks around to prevent even just one link in that chain from breaking.

Wait! What? Who the heck is Alexander Pope? Sounds like an ancient limey poofter to me!

Did you just quote Pope, and then toot your own horn for quoting Pope?

Give yer balls a tug.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Or, we could just keep it simple: How about the pilot actually BE "the obvious master of the aircraft" before being signed off perfunctorily and run through the rest of the kabuki dance steps...? Oh, snap! We've already got that one, in several places.

This ATP/1500hr/Blahblahblah problem is so common these days. It's a simple problem of truth vs visuals; a problem of informed and diligent enforcement of existing law vs creating new-wheel/vested-interest law. Or as Pope used to essay about man, a problem of the "great chain of being"... and making sure we've got enough expert/elite/competent/diligent/committed/incorruptible folks around to prevent even just one link in that chain from breaking.

Wait! What? Who the heck is Alexander Pope? Sounds like an ancient limey poofter to me!

And 1500 hrs establishes that?

Not saying go back to 250 hrs.

But somewhere between 500-1200 can be a good medium.


I’m sick of hearing ALPA your the ATP rule for 0 fatal crashes since 2013. Correlation =! Causation. We’ve had way too many close calls. Experienced 777 pilots nearly ended up taking a drink in Hawaii. Or multiple near collisions while crossing runways due to an incursion.

 

[Ian_J]

Did you just quote Pope, and then toot your own horn for quoting Pope?

Give yer balls a tug.

“Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth"? You got that from Vickers' "Work in Essex County," page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that your thing, you come into a bar, read some obscure passage and then pretend - you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend?”

 

[form810]

Did you just quote Pope, and then toot your own horn for quoting Pope?

Give yer balls a tug.

Not precisely. Perhaps reread for the nuance.

But that's not important right now...

Focus on the flying! Distraction is deadly.

Or, you know, stop Googling, and start internalizing some important wisdom and carrying it around in your heart and in your head... (No! Not that head, you ferocious, sexy, ball-tugging beast, you!)

YOU have CHOICES here in 'MURICA!!!!

 

[form810]

“Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth"? You got that from Vickers' "Work in Essex County," page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that your thing, you come into a bar, read some obscure passage and then pretend - you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend?”

Nope. Read the whole thing... 30ish years ago in high school. Just paid attention during class. It's all still there. Sometimes - most of the time - it's very painful to have it there.

 

[roundout]

Ben Baldanza was on the Airlines Confidential podcast again today promoting 250 hour FOs. His entire reasoning is that they’ll be flying with Captains who have more than 1500TT in a master and apprentice type of operation.

This guy was CEO of Spirit and worked for a half dozen other airlines and he still doesn’t realize that in the USA, a first officer isn’t an apprenticeship. It’s a partnership. And for it to BE a partnership, we need well qualified, highly trained, and EXPERIENCED, first officers. Not seat warmers.

Almost as if Ben and his buddies have a vested interest in hours requirements AND cush wages at the regionals go away. Funny how that is.

 

[BobDDuck]

Or, you know, stop Googling, and start internalizing some important wisdom and carrying it around in your heart and in your head... (No! Not that head, you ferocious, sexy, ball-tugging beast, you!)

See, I didn't google that, and it wasn't my own. I was quoting the brilliant W. Shorsey.

 

[alaskadrifter]

I tend to agree, however there’s not an abundance of research on the matter.


Quoting myself from another thread, it wouldn’t take much to come up with something better than the current rule.

I’m betting that wet ATP’s have never been as weak as they are now.

Keep the 1500, but add multipliers. 2x for jet PIC, 1.5x for muti-engine turboprop PIC, 1.25x for multi-engine PIC. Something like this would reward quality PIC time and devalue weak SIC time.

In theory that’s not a bad idea. Good luck getting anyone to agree on the multipliers though. Also they kinda do it already for MIL pilots, certain university/part 141 grads, age, etc.