Small FBO Experience Vs Big Flight School ME

NW004

NW004

Well-Known Member
Hello everyone,

My parents have recently re-financed their house to help me pay for flight school, this of course leaves me
paying 300 dollars of their mortage for a long time. Which is better then a 1200 for a student loan in my opinion.

Now the deal is, I recently visited Aviator flight school down in Ft Pierce, and it seems like a good school. Lots of ME time and all of the ratings with 259TT for 46k this does not include the checkrides or books which are about 4k more.

I've also been in talks with Dutch Wings in Houston where you can get 255 and Private, Instrument, ME, Commercial Single and Multi for about 23k. This school includes the books and check rides.

A little break down of the programs:

Aviator
46,000 Plus Checkrides
259 TT
Over 200 TT ME
PRI,INS,ME,COM,CFI, CFII, MEI

Dutch Wings
255 TT
23k plus apartment for the stay
15 TT ME
All rest of the time is Cessna 152 and Cessna 172.
PRI,INS,ME,COM

How important is ME time this early in my career? Can I tow banners and get a CFI without that ME time? I have no rush to get to the Airlines, but I will like to fly for pay after I get out of school.

Could I go timebuilding on a ME aircraft with another student further down the road?
 
Here are 10 things that most people will not tell you:

1. Once you get hired by the airlines, you can no longer be a flight instructor while you are working for the airline. Airlines simply do not allow it. So if you are going to an airline, my opinion is that you do not need the CFI, CFII stuff. It's just not necessary. Plus you have to keep that rating current or lose it. That's a lot of currency time and money over an airline career for something you can not use while you are an airline pilot.

2. Effective 2013 you will need 1500 hours minimum and an ATP rating in order to be hired by the airlines and fly passengers. If you are planning to work for the airlines, you need to figure out how you are going to get those 1500 hours. Yes you can tow banners if you have a tailwheel endorsement. However there are a number of issues you must deal with when you tow banners which I will not go into here. Let's just say that it's not a piece of cake and can get boring as hell.

3. Get your private passed first at your local airport and THEN decide what you are going to do. Don't make that decision until after you have the private. Find a local CFI and hire him/her direct. They can use the business. It's better for you and it's better for the CFI. Look on Craigs List for a CFI. If that does not work then call your local Civil Air Patrol for a CFI recommendation. The Civil Air Patrol does not offer flight training, but they do know where the good CFI's are because their members have to stay current, etc. Flight schools will never tell you about the Civil Air Patrol. By the way, you might consider joining the Civil Air Patrol for community service, education, networking and job referrals.

4. 87% of students that start flying never get their private according to AOPA data. You have a 13% chance of getting your private. Don't commit any money past your private rating until you actually get your private rating. To do so it taking a huge risk and you will be guaranteed to lose money. The pay in advance schools know this wash out number and they have huge cancellation penalties in their contracts so that they can keep your money when you flunk out. Don't get into a position of not getting your training or your ratings and still having to pay back the borrowed money to the bank. That would suck big time.

5. Never pay more than $2500 in advance for flight instruction no matter what they promise or what kind of discount they offer. Pay as you go. If the training facility does not allow this then find another one. Keep your money under your control. He who has the gold (money) rules.

6. The ratings you get at a local CFI are no different than the ones you get at a local FBO, a university or a large flight academy. Your pilot certificate comes up looking the same. No one can tell the difference.

7. Multi Engine time is expensive any way you cut it. Do not worry about multi engine time until you get your single engine commerical rating.

8. Pass your written private test on your own before you show up for flight training. Dauntless has the online training for $35. Study, pass three practice tests and then go take your written at one of the computer testing facilities. They charge $150 for taking the written test. So for $185 you can see if you are really cut out for this before you commit to spending tens of thousands of dollars.

9. The instrument rating is the hardest rating to get and the least fun.

10. Glass cockpits are here to stay and you need to learn how to fly them.

That's it for now. I'm sure some others will be along to add to this list.

Joe
 
NW004 said:
How important is ME time this early in my career? Can I tow banners and get a CFI without that ME time? I have no rush to get to the Airlines, but I will like to fly for pay after I get out of school.
Click to expand...

ME time is essentially irrelevant until you have ATP/135 mins (1200-1500 hours).

If you aren't in a huge hurry, a local FBO can be a lot cheaper. You also aren't tied to one place (I did every rating at different FBOs in different cities/states).
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
Here are 10 things that most people will not tell you:

1. Once you get hired by the airlines, you can no longer be a flight instructor while you are working for the airline. Airlines simply do not allow it. So if you are going to an airline, my opinion is that you do not need the CFI, CFII stuff.
Click to expand...

Not true. I've flown with a bunch of DPEs/Glider CFIs/Sim instructors/Acro instructors that are airline.

Realistically though, you won't have time to instruct much with a typical new hire airline schedule. Probably not at all.
 
Please do not borrow against your parents house to fly. Certainly, do not pay ANYONE a lump sum, pay as you go. Many have been burned.
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
Here are 10 things that most people will not tell you:

1. Once you get hired by the airlines, you can no longer be a flight instructor while you are working for the airline. Airlines simply do not allow it. So if you are going to an airline, my opinion is that you do not need the CFI, CFII stuff. It's just not necessary. Plus you have to keep that rating current or lose it. That's a lot of currency time and money over an airline career for something you can not use while you are an airline pilot.

2. Effective 2013 you will need 1500 hours minimum and an ATP rating in order to be hired by the airlines and fly passengers. If you are planning to work for the airlines, you need to figure out how you are going to get those 1500 hours. Yes you can tow banners if you have a tailwheel endorsement. However there are a number of issues you must deal with when you tow banners which I will not go into here. Let's just say that it's not a piece of cake and can get boring as hell.

3. Get your private passed first at your local airport and THEN decide what you are going to do. Don't make that decision until after you have the private. Find a local CFI and hire him/her direct. They can use the business. It's better for you and it's better for the CFI. Look on Craigs List for a CFI. If that does not work then call your local Civil Air Patrol for a CFI recommendation. The Civil Air Patrol does not offer flight training, but they do know where the good CFI's are because their members have to stay current, etc. Flight schools will never tell you about the Civil Air Patrol. By the way, you might consider joining the Civil Air Patrol for community service, education, networking and job referrals.

4. 87% of students that start flying never get their private according to AOPA data. You have a 13% chance of getting your private. Don't commit any money past your private rating until you actually get your private rating. To do so it taking a huge risk and you will be guaranteed to lose money. The pay in advance schools know this wash out number and they have huge cancellation penalties in their contracts so that they can keep your money when you flunk out. Don't get into a position of not getting your training or your ratings and still having to pay back the borrowed money to the bank. That would suck big time.

5. Never pay more than $2500 in advance for flight instruction no matter what they promise or what kind of discount they offer. Pay as you go. If the training facility does not allow this then find another one. Keep your money under your control. He who has the gold (money) rules.

6. The ratings you get at a local CFI are no different than the ones you get at a local FBO, a university or a large flight academy. Your pilot certificate comes up looking the same. No one can tell the difference.

7. Multi Engine time is expensive any way you cut it. Do not worry about multi engine time until you get your single engine commerical rating.

8. Pass your written private test on your own before you show up for flight training. Dauntless has the online training for $35. Study, pass three practice tests and then go take your written at one of the computer testing facilities. They charge $150 for taking the written test. So for $185 you can see if you are really cut out for this before you commit to spending tens of thousands of dollars.

9. The instrument rating is the hardest rating to get and the least fun.

10. Glass cockpits are here to stay and you need to learn how to fly them.

That's it for now. I'm sure some others will be along to add to this list.

Joe
Click to expand...

Best advice I've ever seen on here.
 
I went to Aviator. It was fun and all, but you need to be highly motivated or you will get behind. I would go as cheap as possible at a good FBO/ small school. Having your CFI certs can make finding your first job easier.
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
Here are 10 things that most people will not tell you:

1. Once you get hired by the airlines, you can no longer be a flight instructor while you are working for the airline. Airlines simply do not allow it. So if you are going to an airline, my opinion is that you do not need the CFI, CFII stuff. It's just not necessary. Plus you have to keep that rating current or lose it. That's a lot of currency time and money over an airline career for something you can not use while you are an airline pilot.

2. Effective 2013 you will need 1500 hours minimum and an ATP rating in order to be hired by the airlines and fly passengers. If you are planning to work for the airlines, you need to figure out how you are going to get those 1500 hours. Yes you can tow banners if you have a tailwheel endorsement. However there are a number of issues you must deal with when you tow banners which I will not go into here. Let's just say that it's not a piece of cake and can get boring as hell.

3. Get your private passed first at your local airport and THEN decide what you are going to do. Don't make that decision until after you have the private. Find a local CFI and hire him/her direct. They can use the business. It's better for you and it's better for the CFI. Look on Craigs List for a CFI. If that does not work then call your local Civil Air Patrol for a CFI recommendation. The Civil Air Patrol does not offer flight training, but they do know where the good CFI's are because their members have to stay current, etc. Flight schools will never tell you about the Civil Air Patrol. By the way, you might consider joining the Civil Air Patrol for community service, education, networking and job referrals.

4. 87% of students that start flying never get their private according to AOPA data. You have a 13% chance of getting your private. Don't commit any money past your private rating until you actually get your private rating. To do so it taking a huge risk and you will be guaranteed to lose money. The pay in advance schools know this wash out number and they have huge cancellation penalties in their contracts so that they can keep your money when you flunk out. Don't get into a position of not getting your training or your ratings and still having to pay back the borrowed money to the bank. That would suck big time.

5. Never pay more than $2500 in advance for flight instruction no matter what they promise or what kind of discount they offer. Pay as you go. If the training facility does not allow this then find another one. Keep your money under your control. He who has the gold (money) rules.

6. The ratings you get at a local CFI are no different than the ones you get at a local FBO, a university or a large flight academy. Your pilot certificate comes up looking the same. No one can tell the difference.

7. Multi Engine time is expensive any way you cut it. Do not worry about multi engine time until you get your single engine commerical rating.

8. Pass your written private test on your own before you show up for flight training. Dauntless has the online training for $35. Study, pass three practice tests and then go take your written at one of the computer testing facilities. They charge $150 for taking the written test. So for $185 you can see if you are really cut out for this before you commit to spending tens of thousands of dollars.

9. The instrument rating is the hardest rating to get and the least fun.

10. Glass cockpits are here to stay and you need to learn how to fly them.

That's it for now. I'm sure some others will be along to add to this list.

Joe
Click to expand...

That's Really good advice Joe. Very helpful and applies to all prospective pilots out there.

I do have a question though, about point no. 8. Do you need some sort of background in flying so you can understand the theory better? I will be starting my training around september, so I was thinking of studying for my knowledge tests but its tough with just the FAA manuals. I cant find any PPL or CPL books here which are suited for FAA training. If Dauntless and the FAA manuals are enough then this would be a really good option.

What about the Gleim Online Ground School, it costs $99?
 
rk249 said:
That's Really good advice Joe. Very helpful and applies to all prospective pilots out there.

I do have a question though, about point no. 8. Do you need some sort of background in flying so you can understand the theory better? I will be starting my training around september, so I was thinking of studying for my knowledge tests but its tough with just the FAA manuals. I cant find any PPL or CPL books here which are suited for FAA training. If Dauntless and the FAA manuals are enough then this would be a really good option.

What about the Gleim Online Ground School, it costs $99?
Click to expand...

You just need a CFI, AGI, or BGI to sign your logbook. Pay someone for an hour or two of ground after you have studied everything, they should have no issue signing it off for you, and you get to ask some questions. The online ground schools/King videos/etc will typically fax you an endorsement as well.

I personally would stick to the FAA Publications, the Airplane Flying handbook, The Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, and the FAR/AIM are all available, for FREE, form the FAA's website as PDFs. Pretty much all of the questions come from these anyway.
 
JOEFRIDAY2 said:
Here are 10 things that most people will not tell you:

1. Once you get hired by the airlines, you can no longer be a flight instructor while you are working for the airline. Airlines simply do not allow it. So if you are going to an airline, my opinion is that you do not need the CFI, CFII stuff. It's just not necessary. Plus you have to keep that rating current or lose it. That's a lot of currency time and money over an airline career for something you can not use while you are an airline pilot.

2. Effective 2013 you will need 1500 hours minimum and an ATP rating in order to be hired by the airlines and fly passengers. If you are planning to work for the airlines, you need to figure out how you are going to get those 1500 hours. Yes you can tow banners if you have a tailwheel endorsement. However there are a number of issues you must deal with when you tow banners which I will not go into here. Let's just say that it's not a piece of cake and can get boring as hell.
Click to expand...

He could get instructor certificates to get those 1500 hours. And keeping them current is cheap and easy. One time $175 fee and renewals for life. Only takes 16 hours every two years. Won't get into the tired discussion about the value of flight instructing - but for the OPs benefit he should read discussions for and against flight instructing and make a personal decision. For every JoeFriday with a valid "don't instruct" point, there's someone else with a valid "do instruct" point.


9. The instrument rating is the hardest rating to get and the least fun.
Click to expand...
Hardest, maybe... prepping for the CFI seemed pretty labor and brain intensive. Least fun? Not for everyone! Getting good instrument training is probably the most important foundation you can build to do airline or 135 flying though.
 
Like Joe said, do not prepay your flight program. I can't tell you how many flight schools and FBO's have gone bankrupt in the last 5 years. When they shut down you will never recover a penny. If you don't trust me just google it and you will read all the lawsuits pending. I live in Florida and I meet people all the time that were victims of the prepay.

I would do your private at a local FBO then decide once you finish. You will find more attention from a CFI at your local FBO then a large academy. When I worked at one all they cared about is billing you for each minute. I always felt my training at my local FBO was far better then my time training at a large academy. My first instructor at the academy spoke 70% English and only wanted to talk about my sister. I fired him after 2 flights and my next instructor didn't like to to talk much. Your training is only as good as the CFI. Don't settle on the first person you fly with. Shop them around until you find the person you work best with. The only advantage the academy has is a good training syllabus and detailed ground school. But that can be found at your local FBO too if you shop around.
 
NW004 said:
Hello everyone,



Aviator
46,000 Plus Checkrides
259 TT
Over 200 TT ME
PRI,INS,ME,COM,CFI, CFII, MEI

Dutch Wings
255 TT
23k plus apartment for the stay
15 TT ME
All rest of the time is Cessna 152 and Cessna 172.
PRI,INS,ME,COM
Click to expand...

Add 20%-30% to those figures. Maybe even more.
 
Sometimes I wonder, though. If I do the math right Aviator is, what, $175 per hour and it's almost all multi-time? I was talking to one of our interns and she said that Western Michigan University flight program is well north of $200 an hour for single engine Cirrus flight time. What's the going rate for single engine time at the local FBO's these days?
 
SteveC said:
Sometimes I wonder, though. If I do the math right Aviator is, what, $175 per hour and it's almost all multi-time? I was talking to one of our interns and she said that Western Michigan University flight program is well north of $200 an hour for single engine Cirrus flight time. What's the going rate for single engine time at the local FBO's these days?
Click to expand...

Here in Jersey, $79 for a C152. $180 for Cirrus SR20.
 
SteveC said:
Sometimes I wonder, though. If I do the math right Aviator is, what, $175 per hour and it's almost all multi-time? I was talking to one of our interns and she said that Western Michigan University flight program is well north of $200 an hour for single engine Cirrus flight time. What's the going rate for single engine time at the local FBO's these days?
Click to expand...

I don't know what the math breaks down to. If those numbers are correct you probably do get more bang for the buck at Aviator. Keep in mind thats the advertise rate is a teaser. It will cost way more in the end.
 
rk249 said:
That's Really good advice Joe. Very helpful and applies to all prospective pilots out there.

I do have a question though, about point no. 8. Do you need some sort of background in flying so you can understand the theory better? I will be starting my training around september, so I was thinking of studying for my knowledge tests but its tough with just the FAA manuals. I cant find any PPL or CPL books here which are suited for FAA training. If Dauntless and the FAA manuals are enough then this would be a really good option.

What about the Gleim Online Ground School, it costs $99?
Click to expand...

Ok let me try to answer your questions in the order you asked.

You asked if you need some sort of background in flying so that you can understand the theory better? In a perfect world yes you would. In the real world no you won't.

The Dauntless will get you though this for $35. That is about a cheap as it gets. The Gleim is no better and the Dauntless is updated online on a regular basis. In fact, lately some are passing the practice tests on the Gleim and then failing the real thing because Gleim hasn't updated the questions fast enough.

If you go get the free FAA books and try to do it then you probably won't get what you need to pass. They do have all the information--the problem is that you don't know what information you need to focus on. They have made these tests a obstacle course rather than a way to learn. My advice it to get through the obstacle course and then learn to fly. It's a screwed up system. I didn't make the system. I'm just telling you how to get though it.

This is the same FAA that will require that airline pilots have their ATP before they have any real experience with most of that stuff on the ATP written exam.

Don't sweat it. Just do what you need to do to pass the written tests.

Joe
 
Folks,

The flight instructor route for those that want to become airline pilots just does not work out anyway you cut it. If you are not going the airline pilot route that is a different story. In this instance the OP has made it clear that he wants to become an airline pilot.

The reason it will not work for airline pilots is as simple as looking that your maximum flight hours per year and per month. A 121 pilot can fly a maximum of 100 hours per month and 1000 hours per year.

Currently at many of the regionals, pilots are timing out before the end of the year because they have flown 1000 hours which is the maximum number of hours a commerical pilot is allowed to fly in a year.

Most airline contracts do not allow you to have another flying job without prior written permission.

One of the reasons for not allowing an additional flying job (like teaching flying lessons) is because anytime you fly as a flight instructor it counts towards your 100 hour a month maximum or 1000 hour yearly maximum as mandated by the FAR. There is simply not time for you to flight instruct and fly for the airline. In fact you could "time out" because of the flying lessons you gave and then not be able to fly when the airline wants you to fly. That would not make scheduling happy and probably get you a real quick meeting with the Chief Pilot.

Joe
 
Becoming a flight instructor is a great way to build experience and get paid for flying. Both contribute towards becoming a successful airline pilot.
 
SteveC said:
Becoming a flight instructor is a great way to build experience and get paid for flying. Both contribute towards becoming a successful airline pilot.
Click to expand...

I dunno Steve. I personally have a problem with a freshly minted 250 hour pilot instructing a student pilot how to fly. It's a bad deal for everyone involved. We don't give young folks with a new driver's license a job instructing new drivers. They don't have enough real world experience. Why do we let 250 hour pilots try to teach someone how to fly?

I believe someone ought to have at least 1500 hours before they start teaching. This stuff can get pretty dangerous as evidenced by the number of instructor and student accidents each year.

Joe
 
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