KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
They went to 30 degrees of flaps whenever they increased the gross weight of the 172. In order to improve go-around performance with full flaps at MTOW, they had to limit the flaps to 30.
Slipping a 172 with flaps
- Thread starter Blackhawk
- Start date
They went to 30 degrees of flaps whenever they increased the gross weight of the 172. In order to improve go-around performance with full flaps at MTOW, they had to limit the flaps to 30.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Other way around. You were flying one with a placard that should not have been there.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/6868bd91f493642686257731005229d1/$FILE/3A12.pdf
Joestructor
New Member
If you drop all 40 degrees of flaps in the 172, with idle power, you shouldn't even need to do a slip. That thing will drop like a rock. Get ready to push the yoke forward slightly when you drop that last 10 degrees of flaps. Its like going down a drop on a roller-coaster!
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Every N model I've flown has 40 degrees except those limited to 30 degrees by the Penn Yan or Air Plains 180hp STC.
The good news is that I've slipped them, and I'm still here to talk about it
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
The 40 to 30 Flaps change came with the P model in 1981.
IMO, BH is arguing semantics with the wording of the placards. You have to keep in mind that the earlier models were built/certified under less stringent "legal" obligations and GA aircraft had "friendlier" dispositions. As lawyers saw $$$$$ signs in aviation accidents, manufacturers had to start getting more specific with their wording. Early POHs looked like booklets vs. modern ones that look more like a novel. Regardless, just because something doesn't read "prohibited" it doesn't make it "approved."
Almost all of the POHs have a blanket statement that reads:
"This airplane must be operated in compliance with the operating limitations
as stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals:"
From the E to F models the following wording is used:
"Avoid slips with flaps down."
"Avoid slips with flaps extended."
From the L to M models the following wording is used:
"Known icing conditions to be avoided."
"Flight into known icing conditions prohibited."
Does this mean that flight in icing prior to the M model is "approved?" Of course not. So saying that slipping with flaps 40 is approved because it doesn't say "prohibited" is just as incorrect.
As Joestructor stated, why would you need to do a slip with 40 degrees of flaps anyway? If you find yourself needing to slip with 40 degrees, you have already miscalculated your landing and you are forcing a correction. It is better to teach better planning/airmanship than to teach how to cover up mistakes or how to circumvent the "intent" of placards/limitations.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance
IMO, BH is arguing semantics with the wording of the placards. You have to keep in mind that the earlier models were built/certified under less stringent "legal" obligations and GA aircraft had "friendlier" dispositions. As lawyers saw $$$$$ signs in aviation accidents, manufacturers had to start getting more specific with their wording. Early POHs looked like booklets vs. modern ones that look more like a novel. Regardless, just because something doesn't read "prohibited" it doesn't make it "approved."
Almost all of the POHs have a blanket statement that reads:
"This airplane must be operated in compliance with the operating limitations
as stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals:"
From the E to F models the following wording is used:
"Avoid slips with flaps down."
"Avoid slips with flaps extended."
From the L to M models the following wording is used:
"Known icing conditions to be avoided."
"Flight into known icing conditions prohibited."
Does this mean that flight in icing prior to the M model is "approved?" Of course not. So saying that slipping with flaps 40 is approved because it doesn't say "prohibited" is just as incorrect.
As Joestructor stated, why would you need to do a slip with 40 degrees of flaps anyway? If you find yourself needing to slip with 40 degrees, you have already miscalculated your landing and you are forcing a correction. It is better to teach better planning/airmanship than to teach how to cover up mistakes or how to circumvent the "intent" of placards/limitations.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance
z987k
Well-Known Member
Or you find yourself 7000ft above the runway just cresting a ridge on a 4 mile final because there is terrain. Sure, you can circle and descend, but there is certainly nothing wrong with dropping altitude as quick as possible as well. A lot of us have done it, and I can guarantee you there is almost nothing noticeable aside from the slightest buffet in the elevator. That probably scares some people somehow. The ground filling most of the windscreen may also be unfamiliar or something else your 100hr ppl may not be comfortable with.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Ice=apple
Slips=oranges
Alaska45
Well-Known Member
A 172 with 40 deg. of flaps will still float compared to a C182 or C205/6/7.
Just because it's not on the pnael doesn't mean it's not supposed to be there.
Instument panel of an R model. Look below the flap switch.
Instrument panel of an S (SP) model. Look below the flap switch.
All I'm trying to get at is to not look at the instrument panel to see if a placard is required. The proper place to check is in the POH.
An Exerpt from you article you posted. I am looking for my copy of a 172S poh, so I can take a picture.
Edit to add: My POH is a 172P.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
An Exerpt from you article you posted. I am looking for my copy of a 172S poh, so I can take a picture.
Edit to add: My POH is a 172P.
[/LEFT]
Not in the limitations section of the S model POH.
I fly one on a regular basis, not there as in your picture.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
It isn't a required placard, but I believe Cessna put it on certain year models of the S. I just did a sample of our 5. The two G1000 models: 2004 and 2006 don't have the placard, but the flap position indicator is also different on these, as you know. The other 3, ranging from 1999-2002, did have it. I went on TradeaPlane and looked at some of the early S models, and they had it as well. I assume they stopped putting it when they released the G1000 SPs.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Sorry if that one went over your head. I wasn't compairing ice and flaps, I was showing the evolution of the wording used by the manufacturers and the "intent" behind such wording. Placards aren't made for pilots, they are made for lawyers and insurance companies. Sure, you can "interpret" a placard any way that suits your needs, but the Feds/COURT are going to interpret it as you ignoring a manufacturer's guidance. Thus, absolving them of the liability to pay your descendants and providing the NTSB with the ever popular "pilot error" ruling.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Did anyone actually read the tgrayson article that jhugz linked? Instead of speculating about what could happen, you could just read the cessna test pilot's explanation of why it is there and which models have the worst issues. Or, we could just continue the pointless debate where nobody bothers to gather actual data.
Hmmm.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Who's this jhugz character?
Sent from outer space using tapatalk!.... DRRROID!
*sigh* for those of you who have blocked jhugz, here is a link to an article written by tgrayson regarding slips in 172s with flaps out.
http://www.boundvortex.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=34
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Oh I read the article, I was just joking
For the record I have no one on ignore, I don't find that to be a solution to anything
Sent from outer space using tapatalk!.... DRRROID!
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
Apparently my analogy was over yours... Sorry, I really don't know how to make it simpler than that...
No worries, I know what you were getting at. Still, you chose to compare two things that have nothing to do with each other. Yet, each example still evolved into a different outcome. You're the one putting all the interpretation into it with this "placard interpretation" nonsense. Every placard I've seen has been pretty cut and dry. Either you do it, don't do it, or there's a condition when to do it.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
That was kind of what started this. I've flown with several pilots recently who come from... larger schools... where it was drilled into their heads that slipping a 172 with flaps would lead to doom and gloom. OWTs can never be dispelled often enough.