Skywest Fence Sitters

10-4A, under departure procedures - VFR.

There was a post on our pilot forum about how the public down there is getting upset do to all the overflights (ie noisy) due to airplanes not going up the river.
 
The Southernjets Innanashnul procedure shows us turning at D0.5 DCA, following the middle of the Patomac until reaching the DCA328 radial around D4.0 and then flying the radial northwest.
 
Jeesh. Now I've got to go look at my plates. Hang on....

Well, what do you know. It says until the Georgetown Reservoir which is 4 DME out. You learn something every day.

We had a J4J captain who busted P56 3 times. Then they went to Jetblue and washed out of training and then got hired at FedEx. Some people have all the luck I guess.
 
BobDDuck said:
Aww, come on... you guys get the river visual, the circle 33 and with all the LGA flying you are picking up you must get some Expressway Visuals to keep you happy. Exciting for me is anything less then a 15 miles straight in final to Charlotte.
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Heh. I was more or less doing DCA out and backs in Feb one day. I was in and out of there three times going to either IND or MSN. I think the most fun I've ever had at this job so far as hand flying the River Visual at night. The flight before that one into DCA, I was doing the Mt Vernon visual (which is more or less a straight in) and got the circle to land at the last minute. The second most fun time I've had was going into LGA on the visual.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Skywest guys think they have ASAP but unless you have an enforceable set of rules (read: "contract") like the company can't go thru picking through the data to reprimand you about months later, you're actually putting yourself at great jeopardy even filing one.

And if you do get "called to the carpet", who are you going to have represent you to make sure you get a fair shake?
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You're right, there is nothing that prevents the company from doing that. I haven't actually read AC 120-66 on which the ASAP program is based, but it was my understanding that, like the NASA program, it was protection from certificate action from the FAA.
 
Cheechako said:
You're right, there is nothing that prevents the company from doing that. I haven't actually read AC 120-66 on which the ASAP program is based, but it was my understanding that, like the NASA program, it was protection from certificate action from the FAA.
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When you file an ASAP form, it gets sent to what's called the "Event Review Committee". This is made up of (I believe) several union members, someone from the FAA, and some company folks.

What scares me is this sentence in the SW memo:

As a result of this, ATC and the Chief Pilots’ will be enforcing a zero tolerance policy for ATC deviations.
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So, someone files an ASAP form, the company learns about it via the ASAP program, and then takes action against the pilots. Seems plausible to me.

Here, the ASAP program guarantees (via ALPA) that the information collected from it will not be used against the pilots.

If SkyWest pilots can rest assured that management won't/doesn't take advantage of it, then it seems like a good deal.
 
"A company" tried to dip into the ASAP reports when they were trying to build evidence to reprimand a pilot for something which was a violation of the agreement between the union and the company when ASAP came to campus.

Luckily, there was a legally binding enforceable contractual agreement which allowed ALPA to completely shut the program down until a few heads rolled over the breaking the agreement.

Without a union or the ability to unilaterally shut the system down if the company attempts to abuse it means that ASAP can be a lot more of a liability than an asset.

Without representation, I'd file a NASA form and not even bother with ASAP for fear of retribution.
 
Cheechako said:
It works. The ASAP program prevents certificate action. What it won't do, and wasn't designed to do, is keep you out of the chief pilots' office, time off from work, or job security.
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I think you missed my point, but several others here picked it up...

In order to have an effective ASAP program there has to be a "pilot advocate" member(s) of the gatekeeping committee which reviews data and decides if it is ASAP worthy or not.

Who is the "pilot advocate" at a company without a union?

The answer is - there isn't one. Therefore there isn't a real ASAP program, just a sham, selective one which the company controls and uses as an enforcement tool.


Kevin
 
This statement is in general and no one in specific, but it seems that no matter how many valid reasons for protection you give to these anti-union people, they always find some reason to argue against it. It's almost as if they don't want any protection.
 
mrivc211 said:
This statement is in general and no one in specific, but it seems that no matter how many valid reasons for protection you give to these anti-union people, they always find some reason to argue against it. It's almost as if they don't want any protection.
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That same statement could be turned around and applied directly to the pro-union people.

Thanks to those that responded to the question. Now, if any SkyWest people out there could produce some cases where an ASAP report was used against the pilot(s) that filed it, it would be even better.
 
Ralgha said:
That same statement could be turned around and applied directly to the pro-union people.

Thanks to those that responded to the question. Now, if any SkyWest people out there could produce some cases where an ASAP report was used against the pilot(s) that filed it, it would be even better.
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I guess a company memo from the CP saying Zero Tolerance doesn't count?
 
EDUC8-or said:
I guess a company memo from the CP saying Zero Tolerance doesn't count?
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Trust me man, after being here only 3 short years, no matter what examples are in front of them, they turn the blind eye. They already have their opinions formed.
 
How could one feel safe at their job if they can get fired for any darn reason. ALPA is not the savior of all but they will go down to the last punch to protect you.
 
I have a novel idea... Instead of trying to find a way to get away with continually screwing up, why not try to FIX the problem?
 
EatSleepFly said:
I have a novel idea... Instead of trying to find a way to get away with continually screwing up, why not try to FIX the problem?
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It's kinda hard to fix the problem when:

"2 year RJ captains with FOs who just came off IOE with only a flight instructing background flying 100 hours a month(what year are we going to be properly staffed? 2015 or so?).. with the possibility of 12 days on in 13(thank you pBS) flying 3-4 different aircraft in the same day with 3 or more writeups each in and out of congested airports with MSTs(4 out of 5 friday wraps are about MST's.. how many about safety?), newly minted flight attendants etc. isn't the safest thing in the world? After a 4 or 5 day trip like this(PMs to AMs or vice versa), it isn't hard to get complacent or worse find yourself taking micro**** at the yoke on a nice easy VMC decent in to the home airport."

Notice this is in quotes and names are withheld.
 
mrivc211 said:
It's kinda hard to fix the problem when:
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Well, that may be, but I find it hard to believe the answer is to slap a program in place to excuse deviations that are creating enough of a safety issue to prompt this reaction from ATC.

Of course everyone makes mistakes, and I'm sure the program is great to have. But what kind of message is this thread sending? Sounds to me like, "hey, there's been a rising number of deviations, but if you vote for a union, they will be excused so you can keep your job AND your certificates!" I would think it should be, "hey, there's been a rising number of deviations and this is a problem, so let's do something about it."
 
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