Skywest doing the branded thing?

Also how can you say first year pay doesn't matter? It's an embarrassment to the profession across the board, and a big reason for it is no one cares after they finish year one. Very individualistic mentality.
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It's all in your perspective and where you draw the line. People justify the "a little sacrifice now will pay off in the long run" all the time. I did it coming to Alaska. It's a travesty to fly 156 people across the Pacific for $35 an hour, but in the long run life will be better. People don't bat an eye about spending 7 grand on a type rating for a chance to interview at Southwest, but in the long run, it's worth it.

My seven years at non-unionized Skywest were great! Granted, I never got into any legal certificate action. I've filled out my share of ASAPs, had a couple "PICs" (grievences) resolved, and even put a $15,000 dent in a winglet. Never did I feel like they were out to get me. Something could have happened with my little video landing on YouTube, and I may have wanted some good representation, but if the Feds really wanted some blood on that, even my cousin Vinny would'nt have protected my dumb a** from that. I's just plain stupid on that one. But. . . I digress. . .

My year at unionized Alaska has taught me that the almighty, unmovable contract builds a thick wall between the pilot group and everyone else. "Sorry, even though you accrued three days of vacation in 2006, you can't take any in 2007 because the contract says that all vacations must be a minimum of 7 days." Yes, crappy contract language, but does the execution have to be equally as crappy?

I'm still on the fence. . . my 2% hasn't kicked in yet and we're in contract negotiations. . .
 
flyguy said:
So why should I pay 2% of my salary to get a union to spend 4 years negotiating a contract and by the time it goes into effect I'll have moved on?
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As others have said, I implore you not to use the 'its all about me' argument. You cannot guarantee that you will or will not be here in 4 years time. There are plenty of Captains I flew with that were 'supposed' to be long gone many years ago. So that argument simply does not hold validity.

Besides, I agree 1st year pay is a little low, but if after first year the pay is very competative, especially considering that our work rules give us pay higher than many, if not most, regional carriers even though the base rate is lower. You can't just look at the hourly number, there are just too many other factors going in to what we get paid. As anti-union as SkyWest is, we can kiss those work rules goodbye if we vote in a union and will have to strike just to get things back the way they were. No thanks.
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I will be the first to say that this company is a great place to be. There is no hiding that fact. However, there is plenty of room for improvement from all sides. Jerry et al. are very smart businessmen. Do not think for an instant that they are sitting by and waiting for what comes next with 'regional' flying. While the 'branded thing' is a rumot, Jerry has made it no secret that he wants us to move on from just being a regional. They hate having their hands tied to UA and DL. My point is, is that when (likely not 'if') our senior management does something big and different, we will need the bargaining power to ensure we do not get hosed on the pay rates and everything else for new airplanes. No more 'jets for jobs' crap.

And no, our work rules will not simply disappear when ALPA gets certified :)

Why are all of you union carriers so jelous of what we've got at SkyWest?
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Some are, some are not. I think many of us could pick and choose various good qualities from many regional carriers and make each respective airline better. There are plenty of new hires from other regionals in our classes, but we lose people to other places as well. To each his own in that case.

I am not picking on you here, just trying to have a 'conversation' and tell you my side of it. I was a fence sitter for a long time, but I am convinced we need true bargaining power and get rid of SAPA in current form. They have done nothing for us lately. BHO? A joke and slap in the face to the Bro pilots.

My top reasons for ALPA...

1) No more pen-stroke policy changes
2) Job protection since I am not a perfect pilot (who is?)
3) Protection and assistance in case ASA or another carrier strikes
4) Medical protection and assistance
5) True bargaining power*

*SAPA is weak. They're good guys trying hard, but they have no teeth. And the 'good guys' comment only goes so far. The EB has been there too long and got us nothing. The 'good ol boys club' needs to go.

And the 2% for dues argument? Well worth it. Plus if you fly the jet, management already gave us half of our dues in that paltry 'pay raise'. :banghead:


Minnesota_Flyer said:
No. Under the RLA, the company must maintain status quo ante until a new contract is negotiated (or until an impasse is declared). Skywest cannot legally change work rules once a bargaining unit is certified. (and effectively cannot change them during the electioneering process)
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Thank you. :)

meritflyer said:
For the record -

I am pro airline union.

I think SKYW would be a great place to work and hold nothing against them for not being union.
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Noted. :)
 
Cheechako said:
It's all in your perspective and where you draw the line. People justify the "a little sacrifice now will pay off in the long run" all the time. I did it coming to Alaska. It's a travesty to fly 156 people across the Pacific for $35 an hour, but in the long run life will be better. People don't bat an eye about spending 7 grand on a type rating for a chance to interview at Southwest, but in the long run, it's worth it.

My seven years at non-unionized Skywest were great! Granted, I never got into any legal certificate action. I've filled out my share of ASAPs, had a couple "PICs" (grievences) resolved, and even put a $15,000 dent in a winglet. Never did I feel like they were out to get me. Something could have happened with my little video landing on YouTube, and I may have wanted some good representation, but if the Feds really wanted some blood on that, even my cousin Vinny would'nt have protected my dumb a** from that. I's just plain stupid on that one. But. . . I digress. . .

My year at unionized Alaska has taught me that the almighty, unmovable contract builds a thick wall between the pilot group and everyone else. "Sorry, even though you accrued three days of vacation in 2006, you can't take any in 2007 because the contract says that all vacations must be a minimum of 7 days." Yes, crappy contract language, but does the execution have to be equally as crappy?

I'm still on the fence. . . my 2% hasn't kicked in yet and we're in contract negotiations. . .
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Great post! It is extremely rare that someone is out to 'get us' here at SKYW or for anywhere else for that matter. But it is the unknown factor that is scary.

I liked your comment on contract execution. Each side can use the precise language to their advantage from time to time. A well written contract and good spirits from both sides can go a long way.

It is my sincere hope that our MEC will be strong willed and a true gentleman. There is no NEED for management or the pilot group to get angry over this. It is just business. I believe we can be unionized and still have a good relationship with management. It is all in the execution of the deal :)

btw - I am in SEA today at the training center for 700 sim. Nice place you guys have there!
 
My list was based on an ALPA airline that had these things happen to some of their pilots. All of which were fought by ALPA lawyers on behalf of the pilots, and all kept their jobs.

The last thing I want to do is to step on your toes, and didn't realize that some of the events were similar to events at SKW. I never tried to imply that SKW tries to fire people left and right, and know that it simply doesn't happen. But, as they say "#### happens", and when It does happen I want all the resources available working for me, to protect my job and career.
 
flyguy said:
So why should I pay 2% of my salary to get a union to spend 4 years negotiating a contract and by the time it goes into effect I'll have moved on?
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You would do that because in 4 or 5 years I will be applying at Skywest... I would like to see higher pay, better QOL, etc. If I was in your shoes I sure as hell would be battling to help out pilots who will come after me! It doesn't always have to be about you... Pay it forward...
 
bike21 said:
It is my sincere hope that our MEC will be strong willed and a true gentleman. There is no NEED for management or the pilot group to get angry over this. It is just business. I believe we can be unionized and still have a good relationship with management. It is all in the execution of the deal :)
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100% agree! No need to make it adversarial, it's simply job security ON PAPER which is what we deserve!
 
Okay for those of you who are accusing me of not wanting a union because it will only bennefit those who come after me, and I'm only looking at my own interrest, you could not be more wrong. I believe SkyWest is better off without a union. And since the majority of the voting pilots will be gone by the time a contract is put into play, those that will be stuck with the union would have not even had any say in whether or not they wanted it. What sense does that make? As for me, I don't know where I'll move on to, or even if I will. If I end up stuck at SkyWest I'd have no problem with that. That's another reason I'm worried about ALPA is I think we're better off without them if I do end up making a career out of SkyWest. ALPA's going to make things better for the next generation? Please!! How much better does it need to get? Its pretty damn good as it is. I don't think we need to mess with that.

I suppose you guys are correct about the RLA, but I can guarentee when it comes time for negotiations, ALPA is probably going to have a tough time making things as good as they are now, let alone better, without threatening stikes. I just don't see much generosity comming through on the management side.

As for pilot protection, just out of curiosity, does anyone here actually know first hand, a person who was fired from SkyWest for anything other than training failures, drugs/alcohol, or sexual harassement? On that note, does anyone know any union pilot who got to keep his job after one of the things above? And of course, the obvious solution would be not to land on the taxiway to begin with, but that's beside the point.
 
juxtapilot said:
You would do that because in 4 or 5 years I will be applying at Skywest... I would like to see higher pay, better QOL, etc. If I was in your shoes I sure as hell would be battling to help out pilots who will come after me! It doesn't always have to be about you... Pay it forward...
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Okay I'll tell you what. I'll go ahead and vote yes just for you. I'll take a paycut next year so you can get an extra dollar your first year with little to look forward to the following year. Then when they start negotiating the contract, I'll get out and move on while you go on strike to get things back the way they are now. Then when SkyWest starts furloughing for the first time in 35 years, you'll be the first to go.

Or, how about I vote no, and you can put up with slightly lower than average pay for one year, and then find yourself with some of the best QOL you can find in the industry.
 
You guys have this all wrong. Once we get a true Open Skies agreement, Jerry and Co. invade Canada 1812 style with their own equipment and give WestAir a run for their money. The wife and I move to Calgary, get *free* healthcare, and camp at Banff National Park on my days off.
 
A union DOES NOT have to put a wall between managment and the pilots, it is simply A WAY OF COMMUNICATING. The relationship between the pilot union and managment at Express is great, and the union and the company work together to lower costs overall while providing a safe working environment for the pilots and everybody that fly's on ExpressJet aircraft.

If you think it's all about pay rates, it's not. Express' work rules compare to Skywest's and the pay rates are still HIGHER on SMALLER aircraft.

And BTW, if I did have the time, I still wouldn't want to be going to Skywest. I'd rather commute to LAX when I can hold it and have the protection of a union than be living in base and working at Skywest. Now is that to say I'm not going to apply if I get furloughed? No, that'd be foolish; but I have no interest in flying for Skywest, Colgan or JetBlue because all of them are non union. Again, is that to say that I might end up at one of those companies because I lose my job and I've gotta find some kind of work? No, not at all. I don't think the Skywest pilot group is a bad group of people, but I think you guys are getting the short end of the stick.

And that's what I don't understand. You're getting hosed on your pay rates, but you say, "Well, it's ok!!!! They treat us so well here!" Don't you realize that when OTHERS go to negotiate a pay rate on the CRJ-900 that their companies look at YOUR rates and say, "Well Skywest is one of the 'highest paid pilots in the industry,' and you're saying you want to be paid MORE than them to fly the same equipment? Fat chance!"

And pay rates aside, don't you guys realize that the company could come in tomorrow and say, "$35 an hour second year? We think $25 an hour is more competitive and that's what you'll be flying for. Don't like it? We've got a stack of Mesa pilots that'd LOVE to work for that pay rate and our work rules that are already qualified in the aircraft, so ya'll can take it or piss off."
 
flyguy said:
Okay for those of you who are accusing me of not wanting a union because it will only bennefit those who come after me, and I'm only looking at my own interrest, you could not be more wrong. I believe SkyWest is better off without a union. And since the majority of the voting pilots will be gone by the time a contract is put into play, those that will be stuck with the union would have not even had any say in whether or not they wanted it. What sense does that make? As for me, I don't know where I'll move on to, or even if I will. If I end up stuck at SkyWest I'd have no problem with that. That's another reason I'm worried about ALPA is I think we're better off without them if I do end up making a career out of SkyWest. ALPA's going to make things better for the next generation? Please!! How much better does it need to get? Its pretty damn good as it is. I don't think we need to mess with that.

I suppose you guys are correct about the RLA, but I can guarentee when it comes time for negotiations, ALPA is probably going to have a tough time making things as good as they are now, let alone better, without threatening stikes. I just don't see much generosity comming through on the management side.

As for pilot protection, just out of curiosity, does anyone here actually know first hand, a person who was fired from SkyWest for anything other than training failures, drugs/alcohol, or sexual harassement? On that note, does anyone know any union pilot who got to keep his job after one of the things above? And of course, the obvious solution would be not to land on the taxiway to begin with, but that's beside the point.
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Ok now THIS scares the living #### out of me. It's rationalizations like this that are leading to the downfall of the industry. It will only get worse with attitudes like this.
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
No. Under the RLA, the company must maintain status quo ante until a new contract is negotiated (or until an impasse is declared). Skywest cannot legally change work rules once a bargaining unit is certified. (and effectively cannot change them during the electioneering process)
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I *heart* labor attorneys! :) Uhhh, I mean, you know, appreciate their insight.

(Max Genius alert went off!)
 
flyguy said:
Okay I'll tell you what. I'll go ahead and vote yes just for you. I'll take a paycut next year so you can get an extra dollar your first year with little to look forward to the following year. Then when they start negotiating the contract, I'll get out and move on while you go on strike to get things back the way they are now. Then when SkyWest starts furloughing for the first time in 35 years, you'll be the first to go.

Or, how about I vote no, and you can put up with slightly lower than average pay for one year, and then find yourself with some of the best QOL you can find in the industry.
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Flying the Line I and II. You need to read it.
FYI: 2% of:
$19,000 = 380yr
$40,000 = 800yr
$80,000 = 1600yr
Not a lot of money!!! To know someone has you back.
 
As long as SkyWest keeps its pay rates going in the right direction (they are pretty good now even!) and work rules they have (they also are good) who gives a flying monkey poo if they are union or not?

On a side note, I read somewhere that the 2% override on the larger aircraft was actually a pay cut, because the legs are historically blocked something like 5% less. LOL!
 
It's a pay cut every year because the 2% raise can't even keep up with inflation.

Another screw job by Skywest managment.
 
jtrain609 said:
It's a pay cut every year because the 2% raise can't even keep up with inflation.

Another screw job by Skywest managment.
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You mentioned this in our phone conversation a few days ago.

I forgot to ask, and not that it makes it okay in the long run, but what company (public or private) provides raises per year that exceed, or keep up with inflation? Minus Google (lol).
 
wheelsup said:
Do they get a 2% raise per year? That's pretty nice. We only get 1.5%. What does XJT get?
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There is a raise every year but I'm not sure of the percentage, I'll have to look at the contract/LOA's to come up with it. I'll get back to you.

EDIT: And I don't think they get a 2% raise every year, I think it was a one time thing. Can a Skywest guy make that a little clearer?
 
surreal1221 said:
You mentioned this in our phone conversation a few days ago.

I forgot to ask, and not that it makes it okay in the long run, but what company (public or private) provides raises per year that exceed, or keep up with inflation? Minus Google (lol).
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T-Mobile does
 
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