Single vs. Multi-Engine TIme

FlyingFish

New Member
Hello all -- first time poster, long-timer lurker. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've been looking at a number of schools, with FSA at or near the top of the short list and I've run into one item that I haven't found a real good answer for...

In a number of the other schools (ATP, ARI-BEN, etc), it seems like all of the training beyond private is done in duals to build multi-engine time. Looking at the FSA docs and here in the forum, it looks like the majority of time is spent in singles. Is this really true? If so, what amount of multi-engine time (on average) have people finished with?

Lastly, assuming a person does get hired on @ FSA to instruct, what portion of that will be multi-engine? I'm sure it'll very from instructor to instructor, but with the preferred times required by the airlines for multi-engine, how do FSA grads compete with the other schools whose instructors have high multi-engine time.

Willing to be enlightened... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
The Step I and II are done in the single engine. (Private and Commercial time building). From there, the next three steps are all done in the Seminole, Private Multi, Instrument and COmmercial Multi. As far as competing with other schools for multi time, it certainly not an issue, most instructors will have at least 400 hours of multi time when they leave, many will have far more. You certainly wont have any problems meeting airline minimums with the time you get at FSA.
 
I have no idea on this, but find out how much of the time in their program(s) is safety pilot time. 0 hours of the FSI program are safety pilot time. Whether or not you believe that safety pilot time is valid PIC time is up to you. Personally, I don't think that it holds much weight, but that's just my opinion.

Also, I wouldn't really feel too comfortable with two brand new multi-engine pilots sitting up front with the instructor in the back. What if something went wrong? Where is the most qualified pilot? In the back seat, far from the controls.

I suppose that you could request a custom part 61 program that was all multi, but you'd have to pay an arm and a leg for it because FSI dosen't do the safety pilot thing.

FSI's step II of the CIME course (x/c time building and SEL commercial maneuvers) is in single engine airplanes because it's more affordable for the student.

Like I said though, I don't know the specifics of any other schools' programs so correct me if I'm wrong...
 
My disclamer: I like FSI, and sometimes I wish I went there...but,

At Ari-Ben, if you take the Part 141 Instrument and Commercial (almost exclusively for VA students), your time buiding is 55 hours solo on the Duchess, and you end up with 175 multi (no safety-pilot time) at the end of the course.

Most guys choose the 200 hour Pro Course, where Instrument is Part 141, but Commercial is Part 61. They get 200 hours multi, which is up to 100 hours saftey pilot time...no solo.

After you have your private ASEL, you don't see a single engine again until after your MEI checkride, then it's only a few hours for the CFI/CFII. I think the safety-pilot time is kinda bogus myself. Remember though, if you plan to instruct anywhere that has a large ratio of Multi:Single, your Multi Dual Given will greatly overshadow any safety-pilot time. The average here is 1200TT, 800ME when it's all said and done.
 
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I have no idea on this, but find out how much of the time in their program(s) is safety pilot time. 0 hours of the FSI program are safety pilot time. Whether or not you believe that safety pilot time is valid PIC time is up to you. Personally, I don't think that it holds much weight, but that's just my opinion.


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This is a new term for me -- what's a saftey pilot?
 
There's also a multi time building program you can do if you choose. And yeah most of our time building is solo cross countries which is a lot of fun.
 
When one pilot is flying with an IFR training hood on, the other pilot looks out for traffic, terrain, etc. He/she's the safety pilot. And according to the regs, that person may log the time as PIC. It's kind of a loophole if you ask me. I suppose it's similar to the reg that allows both the student (w/ pvt. certificate or better) and instructor to log PIC.

I'm not trying to start a fight or talk bad about other schools' programs. It's just my opinion that safety pilot time doesn't do as much for developing piloting skills and decision making processes as does actually flying the airplane...
 
All I can say it this is NOT an easy process. I'm going to be visiting three of the schools (FSA, ATP, ARI-BEN), so I hope I'll get the majority of my answers then. There's just so many little quirks to each program that the questions are coming almost non-stop.

It seems that FSA has a really sound program that focuses on the skills. That's a good thing. Although the program seems a little longer compared with ATP, or ARI-BEN, I don't necessarily see that as a negative -- just something else to take into consideration.

You've all been most helpful, and I really appreciate it.
 
Yeah, you should really visit the different schools, that's the only way to really tell. Visit Ari-Ben first, then take FSI up on the free room and do the tour the next day... Ft. Pierce is just down the road.

When I was looking for schools, I went through the same thing. There are so many variables to think about and sometimes you have make sure that you're comparing apples to apples, etc.

Good luck!

Dave
 
I am not sure about Ari-Bens program, but here at FSA you do your instrument in the new (fairly) Seminole which is equipped with an HSI, RMI, and dual Garmin 430's. This really gives you a leg up on your instrument training.

As far as equipment go's....When you tour the schools, make sure you take someone with you who has been flying for some time that knows the difference between good and bad aircraft. I have a couple of friends who went to Ari-Ben for their multi time building in the Duchess. They left the program half way through because the airplanes were (according to them) damn near un-airworthy and were down for Maintanance all the time. One of the reasons I chose FSA was because of their stellar maintanance program and safety record...

Something to consider...ILS
 
I toured FSI before I elected to attend Ari, in fact as a VA student, those two were my only good options as ATP is Part 61 only.

These guys are right in saying that FSI facilities, staff, organization and planes are nicer than at Ari, however I chose Option B because the flight training is solid, and it's cheap. I won't call the aircraft un-airworthy, I've flown USAF aircraft that were worse. The point is, when I look at my logbook and the ratings that I've achieved here, FSI doesn't even come close on matching the price.

HOWEVER, now that I've been around here for a while (working on the MEI), one phrase comes to mind: "BARE MINIMUMS". You get what you pay for here, and that's a lot of multi time and good training. Beyond that, be prepared for just the bare minimums. If you're looking for a school that fuels your plane up for you all the time, where you have onboard air conditioning, an autopliot, heater and GPS, don't look for it down here at Ari-Ben, maybe FSI is a better choice for you.

For me, I'm happy right where I am, but I'm sure I'd be just as satisfied if not more at FSI, just lighter in the wallet.
 
If you do the basic Commercial/Instrument/Multi-Engine Course at Flight Safety, you will end up with 55 hrs of multi-time, 75 hrs in a single and 30 hrs in the Frasca. You will end up with a Commercial Multi-Engine Certificate, an Instrument Rating, and Private Single-Engine Privileges.

After completing the initial course, you have to do the Commercial Single-Engine Add on rating. It only takes about a week, two at the most to get this additional rating, since you already practiced the maneuvers during the time building phase after your private.

About half of the dual you will receive at FSI is in the Seminole, which means that as an instructor, you will spend alot of time in the twin. When I left I had 1131 dual given, and 538 of that was Multi-time. Add this to what you will do as a student and it is more than enough for an entry level job at the regionals, freight, etc.

Most students do not quite squeak out of there with the minimums, so I would count on having about 65 hrs of multi when you complete the initial commercial multi/instrument course.

It is expensive to do the instrument rating in the twin, but I think it is worth it. It is alot more work load intensive than doing it in a fixed gear single. It will better prepare you for flying faster machines.

Another often overlooked beneifit of working at FSI is the pay and benefits. You have probably heard that FSI covers the cost of your CFII and MEI. In additon, as an instructor you will get $14 hr and full benefits (sick days, vacation, insurance, etc.). As long as there are enough students to go around, it is possible to make a living. And despite what other schools would have you believe, FSI instructors get hired by the airlines (even by carriers like ASA and Chautauqua which are 'Delta Connection Carriers'). Who would have thought?

FSI also offers internships at their Sim centers. Instead of paying $7000 to go play in a CRJ Flight Training Device (I will not mention any names), you can get paid $14 an hour to work at a center as a 'sim co-pilot' (*) and get hours of experience in level D sims. At present there are two ways you can accomplish this: 1. If you are hired as an instructor and the Academy has a waiting list to instruct, you apply for an internship and go work in a learning center. You will have to work some in the various offices initially, but will spend about half your time in a simulator. Usually most of the interns spent the majority of their time in the simulators after completing the initial ground school and sim training, as before you can work with clients you have to complete the same training customers do to get a type rating. Low time interns are not type rated, as FSI usually will not type someone who has less than 1000 hrs, but you get the same training as a paying client who gets a type rating. This internship is supposed to last 3 months, but when there was a waiting list to instruct, most interns stayed at their center until being recalled by the Academy for standardization. 2. If you have completed your contract as an instructor, you can go to a center and get type rated. You are supposed to stay 1 yr, but most centers would probably type you if you received a job offer prior to this. Besides great training, and decent pay (although it is part-time), you will make alot of contacts if you want to go corporate. It is better to spend 2 weeks in the sim with someone looking for a pilot than just send your resume to someone who has no idea who you are. There are even a few interns who who were hired as contract pilots and got 25 to 100+ hrs in a jet while they were on the CFI wait list. They are now instructors at the Academy.

(*) You might be asking your self, 'what is a sim co-pilot?' so here is the answer. Most jets require two pilots, so if there is an odd number of pilots in an initial or recurrent class, the training center has a problem. They can have a regular sim instructor act as co-pilot, which means they have one less sim instructor available to instruct in the sim, or they can have an intern act as the second crew member.

If the person is doing a recurrent, then they usually do three sessions in the sim, each one being two hours long. If you are a sim co-pilot, you will not get to 'fly', but will sit right seat (which is really harder than being in the left seat). You will have to run all the checklist, set up the FMS, talk to ATC, etc.

Initials, which result in the client receiving a type rating usually consist of about 7 sim sessions including the check ride. Each session is usually 3 hours long, and the customer spends 2 hours in the left seat and 1 hr in the right. This right seat time allows the customer to act as a co-pilot and run the checklist, program the FMS, etc. You will get to 'fly' in the left seat for about an hour during this time. The last sim session is the check ride and is about 2.5 hrs long, with the intern being in the right seat the entire time. It is really important to do a good job here, as you have a real influence on the outcome of the checkride.
 
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It seems that FSA has a really sound program that focuses on the skills. That's a good thing. Although the program seems a little longer compared with ATP, or ARI-BEN, I don't necessarily see that as a negative -- just something else to take into consideration.

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People seem happy with both of these schools (Ari-Ben and ATP), but one thing you should consider is the ground schools that FSI provides. It is possible to read the Gleim and pass the FAA writtens, and then go on to get your ratings with no ground school. However, I think that early in your flight training, it is better to go to a formal class. It is easy to misunderstand or omit important information, and I think that taking a formal ground school with other students and being taught by an experienced instructor is a good way to avoid this.
 
Excellent information from all of you and I appreciate it.

I sounds like I would have some time (not a whole lot) to possibly work a part-time job. I'm concerned that I'll not be making any money for the first 30+ week. If you can supplement, it would be most beneficial. I'll be coming with a wife and a child, so there are a lot of other factors beyond the flight school that I've been mulling over. In reality most of my effort has been on the effect to them more so than myself. I'm sure this isn't new, so if anyone was in a similar situation, how did they deal with it? I'd be coming from Colorado, so it's not a simple commute for me to attend. It represent an upheaval of sorts that I'd like to plan out as best I can. I'm not a doom and gloom kind of guy, but more of a plan for the worst, hope for the best. Be prepared right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It sounds like the QOL isn't so bad as an instructor or employee. That's important considering your looking at a another 9-12 months prior to attempting to push onward. Not much more I can do besides do the tours and make a decision. If it were just me, I wouldn't be having this kind of discussion, but since there are others who are dependent on me it changes the situation quite a bit.

Thanks for all the replies.

--J.
 
It will be a hard road to go if you have to work part-time and go to an academy or full time flight school. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but you will be tired at the end of the week!. At FSI, you have some control over your schedule, so it would be possible for you to work weekends and fly M-F. Quality of life as an instructor...I don't know about that one. If students are available, you can pay your bills, and I know some who worked part time jobs during the dark days after 9-11 when they were not multi-standardized and could only do single engine students.

As an initial instructor at FSI you are single engine standardized and usually do privates, commercial maneuvers with time building students and commercial single engine students. If you are able to get a CFII student, do so, it is a real learning experience. After about 100 hrs in the single (it varies, it has been as high as 200 hrs) you go through multi standardization and can instruct multi students. Since about half the dual in the normal program is in the twin, this gives you a larger pool of students to draw from. At the 400 hr of dual given mark, you get the dreaded CFI student (if you have an 80% pass rate). At this point it is usually pretty easy to make a living. It is usually only initially when you can only do single students it can be difficult. This all depends on how many students come in.

In my situation, I went to FL and my wife stayed put and worked for the first year. After that she moved to FL. Having a child complicates the situation. You will have to take a hard look at your finances. The loan payments were/are pretty steep. So even if you are working, it can still be hard to make ends meet. The cheapest way to go, would be to get your private at home and pay as you go, then transition to an academy for the multi/instrument ratings. I am very pro FSI when it comes to the CFI initial as well. Their program is very good.

If you have a good FBO near you and are able to complete your private, you might like it and decide to stay. If you are able to keep your current job you will not be able to train as much, but may be financially more secure.

Good luck.
 
Ditto with everything anaoman said. I went to FSI just after 9-11 with my PPL and got all my ratings through CFI. My experiances match closley with what he described. The quality of their program is second to none, but you pay top dollar for it too.

I had no real complaints about the training I recived while I was there, but I now wish I hadn't paid quite so much for it.

If I were in your shoes I would really think about wether FSI will give you anything you can't get from your local FBO without moving your whole family across the country and going into a lage load of debt.

Definately get your PPL (or at least solo) before you take the plunge. You might be extreamly prone to airsickness, ect.
 
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