Single Pilot to Crew

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Honest question here. How hard to go into a crew environment after 1000+ hrs single pilot?

Short Story: Talked to a potential business partner with a plane and we took a trip to a client. His plane, but I've got more hours in make/model. He kept getting behind the curve, but didn't want my advise or even pointing out potential problems.

 

[PositionAndHold]

Honest question here. How hard to go into a crew environment after 1000+ hrs single pilot?

Short Story: Talked to a potential business partner with a plane and we took a trip to a client. His plane, but I've got more hours in make/model. He kept getting behind the curve, but didn't want my advise or even pointing out potential problems.

Just sit there until he tries to kill you. Then fix it. He'll probably listen after that.

Serious answer, that doesn't sound like a crew thing, more of an experience thing. I am assuming its a single pilot airplane? You have two choices, run it like a crew and define duties of the pilot flying and the pilot monitoring. Or if you continue the way you describe, maybe bring it up before the flight. In a polite way, mention the things you saw and offer some guidance. If the other person refuses, well, see above.

 

[dasleben]

Honest question here. How hard to go into a crew environment after 1000+ hrs single pilot?

Short Story: Talked to a potential business partner with a plane and we took a trip to a client. His plane, but I've got more hours in make/model. He kept getting behind the curve, but didn't want my advise or even pointing out potential problems.

With proper guidance, it's not a hard transition at all. In fact, a crew environment is much easier if done right.

 

[z987k]

I've got like 2500 hours of single pilot, and just had my first real crew trip yesterday. We were both qualified PIC's on the type and were both used to flying the airplane single pilot, but it went fine. I'm sure it would have been better if we were used to crew or if we actually had procedures for 2 pilot, but all things said, it was easier than single pilot by a lot.

You problem seems less like a crew thing to me. If he's getting behind the airplane, that's another issue entirely. Sounds like you need t o approach this more as a CFI than a PM.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Yes SEL. I was handling the radio as we were hard IFR. I was also attempting to get him to run the checklist, which is where he was missing things. We had previous agreed he would fly there, I would fly back. I did once increase power as he got to slow and I just announced I was doing it.

 

[z987k]

Yes SEL. I was handling the radio as we were hard IFR. I was also attempting to get him to run the checklist, which is where he was missing things. We had previous agreed he would fly there, I would fly back. I did once increase power as he got to slow and I just announced I was doing it.

Ehhh. I wouldn't do that unless you're about to stall and NEED to say my airplane. "Airspeed" is usually sufficient.

 

[USMCmech]

Yes SEL. I was handling the radio as we were hard IFR. I was also attempting to get him to run the checklist, which is where he was missing things. We had previous agreed he would fly there, I would fly back. I did once increase power as he got to slow and I just announced I was doing it.

If he was the one flying, then you should have been the one running the checklist.


Flying as a crew depends on a good understanding of who will be doing what.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Ehhh. I wouldn't do that unless you're about to stall and NEED to say my airplane. "Airspeed" is usually sufficient.

Yes we were about to stall. ATC gave us a climb and he set AP to climb w/o increase of power (Econ mode). It was enough to kick off the AP too.

 

[z987k]

I sounds maybe like you were approaching this as a CFI and not as a pilot monitoring? Touching the throttles of the PF is enough to get slapped John Wayne style, IMO. Not running the checklists for him... that's like 90% of your job. You need to decide if you're the PM, the CFI or the passenger.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I sounds maybe like you were approaching this as a CFI and not as a pilot monitoring? Touching the throttles of the PF is enough to get slapped John Wayne style, IMO. Not running the checklists for him... that's like 90% of your job. You need to decide if you're the PM, the CFI or the passenger.

I'm the guy trying to get home safe. I called I was doing the throttle as I did say get the nose down. We did get buffiting, I guess that is what caused the AP to disconnect. His hand was resting on stick is why I said for him to lower nose. He was messing with the PFD is why I called I had power. He NEVER reached for it. He was doing what he called flow, I was checking against checklist like I do single pilot. He missed a few things like verify nav and changing nav frequencies, which he indicated he would do. I set freq as we went he indicated he would change as needed.

 

[PositionAndHold]

I'm the guy trying to get home safe. I called I was doing the throttle as I did say get the nose down. We did get buffiting, I guess that is what caused the AP to disconnect. His hand was resting on stick is why I said for him to lower nose. He was messing with the PFD is why I called I had power. He NEVER reached for it. He was doing what he called flow, I was checking against checklist like I do single pilot. He missed a few things like verify nav and changing nav frequencies, which he indicated he would do. I set freq as we went he indicated he would change as needed.

I would sit down and go over duties of each "crew member". You can't just decide when to jump in and start helping out. Either your sitting there and not doing any thing until he tries to kill you, or your a crew member. You're not a cfi in tis instance. You say things first loudly and clearly, if no response or action, you do it. This should be pre briefed before the flight so you're both on the same page. Generally if the airplane is being hand flown, the pilot monitoring (PM) will handle the radio, run the checklists when called for and control the alt. preselect and heading bug. Once the A/C is on auto pilot then the pilot flying (PF) takes over the alt preselect and heading duties. If the PF needs help remembering to run checklists, tune radios etc. then the PM helps him remember those things. Don't just do it with out telling the PF, say some thing like "hey you want me to get the approach set up?". It takes some time to adjust, but you must be on the same page and verbalize every thing with each other. Have I mentioned being on the same page?

 

[Houston]

Honest question here. How hard to go into a crew environment after 1000+ hrs single pilot?

That is a pretty good question at any level of experience. It's easier in a well defined crew operation where the PF's and the PNF's have a script to follow. It becomes more difficult in an ill defined environment.

A lot of truth is conveyed in the form of humor. This is a little dated, but I remember many times hearing about the three most dangerous things in aviation. They were a doctor in a V tailed Bonanza, an airline pilot in a Pitts, and two flight instructors in a Cessna 150. That last one of the three speaks to several issues, not the least of which is the CRM issue.

In all cases, I think the single most important key to crew effectiveness is open and honest communication in both directions.

 

[dustoff17]

The transition from Sng pilot to crew is seamless if you are able to communicate and work with the other pilot.

Honest question here. How hard to go into a crew environment after 1000+ hrs single pilot?

Short Story: Talked to a potential business partner with a plane and we took a trip to a client. His plane, but I've got more hours in make/model. He kept getting behind the curve,........

This one doesn't bother me to much. This might be just an observation based on a comparison of how "you would fly it". I agree with the others that you should talk about duties and responsibilities before you fly.

.......but didn't want my advise or even pointing out potential problems.

This one concerns me. Find out why he wants you there? Conversation? Company? Insurance? If he wants you as crew then you have to talk about crew duties. Otherwise if he really doesn't need and/or want your input and it will cause more damage in the cockpit than good.

Self-preservation is the key here. No sense in standing in front of a loaded pistol......

 

[auw2fly]

I would sit down and go over duties of each "crew member". You can't just decide when to jump in and start helping out. Either your sitting there and not doing any thing until he tries to kill you, or your a crew member.

Agree! It sounds like a situation that a briefing before hand would have taken care of.

The owner of the airplane I fly is a pilot as well, and when I'm sitting right seat I tell him before takeoff to act as though I'm not there (unless he asks for my help ahead of time). He is fully qualified in the airplane, so the only time I say anything or touch anything is if he's going to kill me, or damage the airplane.

The way I see it, if he's qualified in the plane he shouldn't need my help. He missed changing a nav frequency and blew through the localizer? Too bad. He got himself into that situation, he should get himself out of it. Is it annoying to watch it happen? Absolutely! But maybe that will be what finally gets him to ask for help, or realize he's in over his head and needs more training.

Now if I'm listed as PIC on the flight plan, that's another thing...

Just my two cents.

 

[JLF]

Sounds like a real CF there...

The first time I wondered if I might die in an airplane was on a flight like that. I think he knew he was in over his head. We were both inexperienced but he was receptive to corrections, and had a good attitude while he was two-hands-white-knuckled on the yoke and flailing the airplane around in the scuzz.

 

[kellwolf]

The way I see it, if he's qualified in the plane he shouldn't need my help. He missed changing a nav frequency and blew through the localizer? Too bad. He got himself into that situation, he should get himself out of it. Is it annoying to watch it happen? Absolutely! But maybe that will be what finally gets him to ask for help, or realize he's in over his head and needs more training.

Now if I'm listed as PIC on the flight plan, that's another thing...

This sounds more like a CFI trying to get a student to grasp a concept than a PM situation. What if you ARE the PIC on the flight plan and this is how he felt as well? I know if it were me, I'd rather have the other guy save my bacon unless it's a lesson being taught.

 

[tomokc]

I used to fly with a phenomenal pilot and when he was the PF and I was PNF, part of his pre-start briefing was this: "Alert me if I am 10 degrees off assigned heading, 10 knots off target airspeed, or 100' off assigned altitude. If I don't respond, alert me one more time. If I still don't respond, assume that I am spatially-disoriented and take the flight controls."

We flew a lot, and maybe one or two times did I ever have to verbalize that he was off target, and never the second time.

 

[mshunter]

In short, if you are going to be flying a crewed airplane now, expect to be bored even more. Now duty gets split between two people, so you have even less to do.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I sounds maybe like you were approaching this as a CFI and not as a pilot monitoring? Touching the throttles of the PF is enough to get slapped John Wayne style, IMO. Not running the checklists for him... that's like 90% of your job. You need to decide if you're the PM, the CFI or the passenger.

Unless I just said "Set power" or "Climb power," but that's why we have an SOP. Touching the PLs other than to trim = instant beeyotch slap from the other seat.

"After takeoff check." "Yes, Your Airworthiness!"

That is a pretty good question at any level of experience. It's easier in a well defined crew operation where the PF's and the PNF's have a script to follow. It becomes more difficult in an ill defined environment.

A lot of truth is conveyed in the form of humor. This is a little dated, but I remember many times hearing about the three most dangerous things in aviation. They were a doctor in a V tailed Bonanza, an airline pilot in a Pitts, and two flight instructors in a Cessna 150. That last one of the three speaks to several issues, not the least of which is the CRM issue.

"Who's flying this thing?"

In all cases, I think the single most important key to crew effectiveness is open and honest communication in both directions.

Yup. Defined roles and duties also make it easier, too.

I have a couple of buddies I go fly with on a regular basis; we both have our defined expectations of what the other guy will and will not do and whose name is on the paperwork, too. We rehash them when we get in the airplane (generally the other guy looks for other airplanes).

In short, if you are going to be flying a crewed airplane now, expect to be bored even more. Now duty gets split between two people, so you have even less to do.

That's funny.

Without getting into the "any airplane can be flown single pilot and all FOs are useless baggage" argument promulgated and propagated by the chest-thumpers, there are a number of good reasons why crewed airplanes have crews, and a lot of it in my book has to do with making sure that at least one pilot is "minding the shop" with regard to positive aircraft control and terrain separation at all times, especially when things go pear-shaped.

(This wasn't always the industry's understanding; Pan American and others crashing perfectly good airplanes had something to do with this understanding being developed, though.)

A second set of eyes and hands that are trained to work with the first set is invaluable. Especially at night, in mountainous terrain and miserable weather. Of course you COULD do it by yourself, but why would you? If the operation requires (or provides) two pilots, use "all available resources..."

 

[Mark815]

Sounds like you guys need to seriously sit down before flying and work things out. You can't just hop into a plane and say "We're a crew". If neither one of you know your actual roles, then things can not only get uncomfortable, but actually dangerous. Rules need to be set, and procedures adhered to. Standardization is key, that way you guys both know what to expect out of each other.