Since MikeD is bored....

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Take a look at the Jawbn arrival into BFI, should be under KBFI 10-2 something. This arrival is shared between BFI and SEA. See the crossing restrictions at Jawbn and assume you are landing 31 at BFI. Do you have to cross Jawbn at 16K and 280knots or is that only for SEA traffic. Assume you have been cleared to descend via the Jawbn arrival by Seattle approach.
 

RiddlePilot

New Member
Seeing as how the crossing restriction does not specifically mention BFI Runway 31, I'd have to say that you would cross JAWBN at 280 and 16,000. If we were landing Runway 13 at BFI, that'd be another story, since that's published.

I hate these dang NACO charts.
 

FL270

New Member
I will concur ... the "landing north" does not specify an airport, and there is no specific procedure for BFI 31 arrivals, so unless ATC specified differently, I would cross JAWBN at 16,000 at 280 knots.

I also agree that NACO charts suck, but our Jepps only cover the Eastern US, so I'm stuck with online NACO to answer this question.

FL270
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Okay...here's another one. After takeoff from Vancouver, departure gives you "cleared direct Jawbn and the Jawbn 9 arrival" (not sure if that's the correct arrival number). Then you contact Seattle approach and they just say "roger". If landing 13 at BFI, do you, without furthur clearance, descend to cross Jawbn at 11 and 250? Approach never said specifically "descend via the Jawbn 9 arrival"....though Vancouver departure did say "cleared for the Jawbn9 arrival"
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
No, unless they say the magic words "descend via", I would maintain altitudes as assigned by ATC and just fly the route of the arrival.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
No, unless they say the magic words "descend via", I would maintain altitudes as assigned by ATC and just fly the route of the arrival.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would think that's an elementary idea, but I argued ith a former airline pilot (that's now a college professor...
) about this. He insisted that when you're issued an arrival clearance, then you MUST decend via the SID's MEAs.

So, then I referenced the "Turbojet Vertical Planning Info", and asked him why they're often crossing at higher altitudes than the MEA....he said, "Well, the jets are different beacsue...".

Riiiigghhht....
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
He insisted that when you're issued an arrival clearance, then you MUST decend via the SID's MEAs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Should've pointed him to AIM 5-4-1:

a.) <snip>

1.) <snip>

2.) Pilots navigating on a STAR shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving authorization to descend so as to comply with all published/issued restrictions. This authourization will contain the phraseology "Descend Via." [Emphasis NOT added]

EXAMPLE: (from AIM)

1.) LATERAL/ROUTING CLEARANCE ONLY: "Cleared Hadly One Arrival."

2.) ROUTING WITH ASSIGNED ALTITUDE: "Cleared Hadly One Arrival, descend and maintain flight level two four zero."

3.) LATERAL/ROUTING AND VERTICAL NAVIGATION CLEARANCE: "Descend via the Civit One Arrival." "Descend via the Civit One Arrival, except, cross ARNES at or above one one thousand."
 

IrishSheepdog

Sitting in the median
[ QUOTE ]
Take a look at the Jawbn arrival into BFI, should be under KBFI 10-2 something. This arrival is shared between BFI and SEA. See the crossing restrictions at Jawbn and assume you are landing 31 at BFI. Do you have to cross Jawbn at 16K and 280knots or is that only for SEA traffic. Assume you have been cleared to descend via the Jawbn arrival by Seattle approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Going by the FAA chart, I would cross JAWBN at 16,000 ft and 280 kts going into 31 at BFI.
 

IrishSheepdog

Sitting in the median
[ QUOTE ]
Okay...here's another one. After takeoff from Vancouver, departure gives you "cleared direct Jawbn and the Jawbn 9 arrival" (not sure if that's the correct arrival number). Then you contact Seattle approach and they just say "roger". If landing 13 at BFI, do you, without furthur clearance, descend to cross Jawbn at 11 and 250? Approach never said specifically "descend via the Jawbn 9 arrival"....though Vancouver departure did say "cleared for the Jawbn9 arrival"

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not descend, but I would slow to 250 knots. See the notation under the JAWBN identifier. "Comply with speed restrictions as published. Maintain the last assigned altitude. Upon recipt of 'Descend via the JAWBN9':"

This means you need to follow the speed limits for the arrival procedure (lateral separation), but vertical is determined by ATC telling you when to make the crossing restrictions.
 
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