Side stick vs conventional Yoke

jtrain609 said:
In actual conditions? Never. They pay me to get the plane on the ground safely, not prove how awesome I am.

In visual conditions? Every leg. I can't stand leaving the AP on inside the marker if I can see the airport.

EDIT: I should clarify, when I say actual, I really mean down to minimums. I click off the AP as soon as we break out, be it at 200' or 1,000'.
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How the hell do you stay current?! I mean, I get not flying approaches when it's 200 and 1/2, but NEVER? You should handfly some approaches in actual in case you need to.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Eh, he's got a point there.
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I have to disagree with you.

You maintain proficiency with the aircraft by hand flying visual approaches, having the discipline to hand fly an ILS (looking inside) when it is nice outside, asking for the RNAV, or doing an autoland when it is severe clear. If everything is working and it is hard IFR conditions let the systems do their job. It is your job as a professional to maintain your proficiency outside of 'practicing' when the conditions are hard IFR.
 
Seggy said:
You maintain proficiency with the aircraft by hand flying visual approaches, having the discipline to hand fly an ILS (looking inside) when it is nice outside, asking for the RNAV, or doing an autoland when it is severe clear. If everything is working and it is hard IFR conditions let the systems do their job. It is your job as a professional to maintain your proficiency outside of 'practicing' when the conditions are hard IFR.
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Rest assured, I like my autopilot (and used it to 200' ATDZE last night, twice in fact, as conditions warranted its use).

I guess what my point is, is hand flying is perishable, and as required to maintain proficiency (and as appropriate for the conditions) you should keep it from perishing.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Rest assured, I like my autopilot (and used it to 200' ATDZE last night, twice in fact, as conditions warranted its use).

I guess what my point is, is hand flying is perishable, and as required to maintain proficiency (and as appropriate for the conditions) you should keep it from perishing.
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Not necessarily directed at you Autothrust Blue ...

I think what Seggy is recommending does keep you proficient. I don't need 200' 1/2 to stay proficient. Does a sim keep you proficient for emergencies? VFR, 700' and 1sm, 500' 5sm, whatever they all accomplish the same thing from a hand flying perspective. My job is to get the airplane on the ground as safely as possible, as efficiently as possible, and to remain safe and comfortable with all levels of automation. Just because I can practice down to the lowest published min doesn't mean I necessarily should.

It's like insisting on briefing a Cat II because the minimums allow it rather than just doing a Cat III which you know will more than likely work and be the wiser course of action? Why do a Cat II when a Cat III is available? You want to practice your go around technique if the RVR equipment is not up to snuff something?
 
Cav said:
Not necessarily directed at you Autothrust Blue ...

I think what Seggy is recommending does keep you proficient. I don't need 200' 1/2 to stay proficient. Does a sim keep you proficient for emergencies? VFR, 700' and 1sm, 500' 5sm, whatever they all accomplish the same thing from a hand flying perspective. My job is to get the airplane on the ground as safely as possible, as efficiently as possible, and to remain safe and comfortable with all levels of automation. Just because I can practice down to the lowest published min doesn't mean I necessarily should.

It's like insisting on briefing a Cat II because the minimums allow it rather than just doing a Cat III which you know will more than likely work and be the wiser course of action? Why do a Cat II when a Cat III is available? You want to practice your go around technique if the RVR equipment is not up to snuff something?
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Exactly.
 
Cav said:
Not necessarily directed at you Autothrust Blue ...

I think what Seggy is recommending does keep you proficient. I don't need 200' 1/2 to stay proficient. Does a sim keep you proficient for emergencies? VFR, 700' and 1sm, 500' 5sm, whatever they all accomplish the same thing from a hand flying perspective. My job is to get the airplane on the ground as safely as possible, as efficiently as possible, and to remain safe and comfortable with all levels of automation. Just because I can practice down to the lowest published min doesn't mean I necessarily should.

It's like insisting on briefing a Cat II because the minimums allow it rather than just doing a Cat III which you know will more than likely work and be the wiser course of action? Why do a Cat II when a Cat III is available? You want to practice your go around technique if the RVR equipment is not up to snuff something?
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Gotcha.

Part of my (unique and should probably be disregarded) viewpoint is that I don't HAVE that much automation to start with, and what I have is like banging rocks together next to the ERJ/A320/insert modern, large aircraft here. It disappoints, but doesn't surprise, is mostly capable of getting the job done but sometimes just can't hack it.

(I fly it the way I'm paid to fly it.)
 
ppragman said:
How the hell do you stay current?! I mean, I get not flying approaches when it's 200 and 1/2, but NEVER? You should handfly some approaches in actual in case you need to.
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Following a flight director down an ILS takes very little skill, and does nothing but load up the other guy. Just easier for all involved to leave it all hooked up.
 
I fly an airbus (330), transitioned to it from the CRJ. I thought it was pretty easy to transition to the sidestick, the hardest part was learning & understanding the various control laws (i..e Normal Law, Alternate, etc). Here's a good website with some basic Airbus info: http://www.airbusdriver.net/
 
Honest question: What is so dangerous about flying an ILS through the clouds? Be it hand flown, raw data, with a flight director, autopilot coupled, whatever.

What are the issues which would cause a less than ideal outcome? Are the potential problems in larger, jet powered aircraft more significant in some way? I've never flown any jets or transport category aircraft.

Have there been accidents/incidents in the past from crews hand flying?

I can kind of understand using more automation when it's 1800 RVR, but if we're talking about a 400 and 1 mile day, I don't understand what types of things people are trying to prevent by using more automation. You're not going to crash and not going to go missed, so what *are* you going to do that the automation will prevent?
 
For the record, I'm not saying "fly the thing to 1800RVR and VV002!!!" I'm saying, if you can reasonably expect to break out at 500 or 600' AGL, why not stay proficient? You don't even have to do it every time, but a visual approach backed up by the localizer is not the same as hand flying an ILS. You have peripheral cues that make the experience apples and oranges to hand flying an ILS. How do i know this? Because I have a little bit of automation, and I find that my hand flying deteriorates dramatically if I don't do any actual instrument flying. Automation is great, but it makes a poor master, and theoretically, shouldn't it be "just as safe" to hand fly a raw data ILS as to fly a coupled one?

As for windshear alerts, I've never had an airplane that would tell me when I was experiencing windshear, it's pretty easy to tell when you're going into it, even if you don't have any "seat of the pants" cues. Sides', if it's a calm weather day, with 500OVC and a couple of miles, you're not not super likely to experience any windshear. Why not hand fly?
 
dasleben said:
Nah, that's what the sim is for. Raw data has its place, but on a perfectly operating ILS, the safest thing is to leave it hooked up in IMC.
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But how often do you go to the Sim? Every 6 months? Or if you don't fly a lot, then every 90 days to get current again? Nah, I think it's a good idea to try to stay a bit more current than that personally.
 
Cav said:
Cherokee_Cruiser , PeanuckleCRJ covered Boeimg VNAV well so I won't add much. I think Boeing auto throttle management is great because it gives the pilot options without having to change the descent mode. Want less or more descent rate while in VNAV/THROTTLE hold? Just move the throttles to adjust. The big advantage to the system to me over Airbus VNAV is that you never have to leave VNAV when you want to operate outside the preprogrammed descent rates. Options in VNAV in other words no need to switch to VS because you can accomplish the same thing in throttle hold.. No need to initiate descent at TOD unless you want to do so prior with Descend Now. The fact that the Airbus wouldn't start down on it's own in my opinion opens you up to distraction. Not a huge deal but it never made much sense to me. VS is just like Airbus and FLCH is the same as open descent. I would love to have FPA back but I think the 737 has it. Correct PeanuckleCRJ ?
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Hmmm, ok I guess that makes sense. I guess you're saying a Boeing automatically starts down at TOD? I dunno, I know the Airbus does not, and I prefer that. I like to start the descent myself. Though of course people will argue the NWA MSP flyover wouldn't have happened in a Boeing if it had started itself down at TOD.

Also, Airbus has LVL/CH (circular dot) which means a managed descent mode is armed or active.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Hmmm, ok I guess that makes sense. I guess you're saying a Boeing automatically starts down at TOD? I dunno, I know the Airbus does not, and I prefer that. I like to start the descent myself. Though of course people will argue the NWA MSP flyover wouldn't have happened in a Boeing if it had started itself down at TOD.

Also, Airbus has LVL/CH (circular dot) which means a managed descent mode is armed or active.
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The Boeing will start down at the TOD if you have a lower altitude selected... it's very nice and I vastly prefer that. People that argue that the MSP flyover wouldn't have happened don't understand that you have to have a lower altitude selected in the window for it to start down. Otherwise it just continues on. Those guys had to have been passed completely out or something- you know the alerts on the PFD and MCDU that you get when you pass the down arrow.

I personally very much disliked the Descend Now feature on the 757/767 due to the speed on pitch function... I typically opted for VS and monitored the path and then reengaged VNAV once the path got close. Much smoother! The speed on pitch of the Boeings is very smooth like the OP CLB and OP DES in the Airbus... we nearly always use that in the climb. The 737 Descend Now functions identically to selecting managed descent prior to the down arrow.
 
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