SID Question

[Murdoughnut]

I'm a bit IFR rusty and doing some planning for a flight next week. Specifically, I'm trying to understand the KNI2.PEKNN departure out of JQF.

We'll use a departure from 20 to help here. So I get that I takeoff and turn to 150 while climbing to 2,400. After that it says to expect radar vectors and climb to 3,000. Do I stay at 2,400 until I receive a climb clearance to 3,000, or do I continue the climb to 3,000 even if they don't call me back?

Also, when I put the SID in Foreflight it shows me turning back to the CLT VOR and flying over it before proceeding on the route. I also notice the language on the bottom of page two that says "From over CLT VOR..." What does this directive to fly over CLT apply to - is it for lost comms if I'm not able to receive radar vectors? I'm confused.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Easy peasy. Make the initial turn and climb to 2400. Somewhere along the way you’ll get vectors that will most likely point you towards CLT. You’re cleared to climb to 3000 but very likely ATC will give you higher along with the vectors. Bottom line, fly heading 150 and climb to 3000 until you hear otherwise.

Anybody have a Jepp chart to see how they publish the same DP? Most likely it’s more clearly portrayed.

 

[inigo88]

Caveat I’m not a CFI but am at least a non- current instrument pilot, but this is option #3 of the possible SID types below and tends to be the least clear on the NACO govt charts:

1. Pilot Nav (own navigation from takeoff to transition).
2. Radar vectors (initial heading and climb, expect radar vectors to transition).
3. Hybrid (initial climb instructions, wait for radar vectors to rejoin a segment of the pilot nav portion and then resume own navigation).

The page 1 description and the page 2 description of the PEKNN transition also conflict with each other, because I think page 1 is telling you what to expect and page 2 is telling you what to do in case of lost comms.

Page 1 says: “Expect vectors to intercept CLT R-093 to GIPPR then SDZ R-272 to PEKNN.”

So raw data you would have CLT VOR tuned in NAV1 and CRS set to 093, heading bug set to 150. Take off, passing 400 Ft AGL turn left heading 150 and climb to your initially assigned altitude in your clearance (which should be greater than or equal to 2400 ft) and contact departure. Expect vectors for a left turn to intercept that 093 radial you have set up in NAV1.

If you’ve got an IFR GPS or ForeFlight for simplicity’s sake I’d make the route KJQF.CLT.GIPPR.PEKKN but expect to sequence the active route segment you’re intercepting to be the one between CLT and GIPPR. Then having done all this prep work expect ATC to throw it all out the window and give you direct anyway, but at least you’re prepared.

As far as the at or above 2400 vs 3000 ft top altitude thing that seems like kind of lazy SID design to me - they didn’t tie the at or above 2400 to a specific DME or fix like a regular crossing restriction, so I think this really goes back to page 2 and the lost comm procedure. If your radio dies before switching to departure and you’re in IMC, turn left heading 150 and climb to at least 2400 before making any other turns. At that point the page 2 thence maintain 3000 applies, so now your own to continue the left turn back to CLT VOR continuing your climb between 2400 and 3000. From over the top of CLT turn right and intercept the R-093 outbound observing the minimum altitude restrictions on each of the subsequent route segments, hopefully break out on top and get yourself to some VFR weather if possible and land.

Apologies to any CFIIs if I blew that, feel free to correct. I think @ZapBrannigan is right that the Jepp charts are always more clear on these hybrid type SIDs and really do a better job showing your expected radar vector between your initial heading and where you pick up the pilot nav segment.

Edit: A more clear example of a hybrid radar vector then pilot nav SID is the Skyline 1 departure out of Oakland CA shown here:

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2301/pdf/00294SKYLINE.PDF

Departing runway 30 fly heading 296 and climbing to cross the OAK 4 DME at or above 1400 but less than 2000 (this top altitude is so you don’t get smushed by SFO departures climbing above you), and then what isn’t super clear on the chart… pause and wait for radar vectors from norcal departure. Departure will give you a left turn and a climb to intercept the PYE R-135 outbound to PORTE and you’ll fly the rest of the SID pilot nav after that. If you’re lost comms with Norcal departure after that 4 dme restriction then the dotted line segment showing the heading 200 and at or above 3000 restriction is a lost comms procedure to get you back onto the pilot nav portion of the SID, because if you blindly fly heading 296 at 2000 ft you may crash into Mt Tam at 2600 ft elevation.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Thanks this makes a lot of sense and is mostly what I had thought, so I appreciate you guys looking at it.

 

[ClearedForOption]

fly heading 150 and climb to 3000

This.

And yes... This is why the Jepp charts are awesome sauce compared to the gov't ones.

 

[CFI A&P]

The altitude range (2,400-3,000) and turn back to the VOR is usually related to MEA for the direction of flight, if you can’t make the MEAs you’ll get vectors to climb as needed before turning on course. The CATH1.PSP is a good example of this.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Easy peasy. Make the initial turn and climb to 2400. Somewhere along the way you’ll get vectors that will most likely point you towards CLT. You’re cleared to climb to 3000 but very likely ATC will give you higher along with the vectors. Bottom line, fly heading 150 and climb to 3000 until you hear otherwise.

Anybody have a Jepp chart to see how they publish the same DP? Most likely it’s more clearly portrayed.

Jepp is identical in the route description Except for Jepp-standard use of ALLCAPS. I wouldn't expect a difference here. Not 100% but I'm pretty sure the text of the route description is regulatory.

 

[Bamaaviator]

My assumption coming off of runway 20, the tower would assign you 3,000 upon receiving your takeoff clearance, instead of 2,400. That’s just my assumption. Or, since you will be getting your clearance from nearby CLT, they will be probably just assign you a climb via Sid with your initial clearance. In that case just continue up to 3000. If you haven’t received higher upon checking in with departure, just ask for higher. Assuming you’re flying a piston or turboprop, they sometimes ‘forget’ the little guys. But if flying a jet, they should be ‘on top of everything’ and give you higher soon after checking in, eliminating the need to level off quickly. But since it’s near CLT class bravo, they might keep you there at 3,000 until they can get you out of the way of CLT inbounds/outbounds.

Regarding the transitions on the bottom of page 2, that’s just the government’s strange way of showing you each of the transitions, along with each of the computer identification codes for flight plan filing. That’s not the lost comms stuff. If you lost comms here in the CLT area, the last thing they’d want you doing is going direct to CLT VOR which is directly over the field at CLT and conflicting with all the traffic. They’re just simply listing each transition and providing a textual description of what you will spin each nav course selector to for tracking those radials. Jeppesen makes it easier and eliminates this textual description and just places them in the planview of the chart with dashed lines showing the transitions, and solid lines showing the basic portion of the procedure. Takes up less space.

But like anything that’s confusing, if I were flying this departure out of there, I’d just ask the controller for clarification. In my opinion this procedure is a little, ‘odd,’ as that 2400 ft altitude instruction coming out of that turn doesn’t reference crossing a dme fix or anything.

 

[///AMG]

Climb via except.....