SIC

Kalikiano

New Member
Ive read 61.51 a little and still not sure about SIC time. SIC would fill its own column in a logbook and not count towards PIC of an aircraft.

If the plane requires more than one crewmember can you log SIC and PIC?

Im guessing the only real benifit to having SIC time is that it builds your TT?

DO FO's log all their time as SIC?
 
Basically, if the airplane is not single pilot certified, you need an SIC. Also during certain operations under 135, 121, etc. It builds TT and any other conditions of flight. FO's are the SIC are log the time accordingly.
 
Ive read 61.51 a little and still not sure about SIC time.
SIC would fill its own column in a logbook and not count towards PIC of an aircraft.
Yes, that's correct. SIC is separate from PIC

If the plane requires more than one crewmember can you log SIC and PIC?

It depends on the operation. In an airline-style operation, the PIC and SIC are assigned by the company. Some corporate departments operate on a co-Captain system where the pilots alternate between PIC and SIC. I'm not too versed in the corporate side.

Im guessing the only real benifit to having SIC time is that it builds your TT?

Not entirely true. While you can't log PIC as a SIC(there are others who have a legal arguement, but it's not a practical thing to do at the airlines...but I digress), you can log night/instrument/multi-engine/turbine/121 or 135 time/ time-in-type as well.

DO FO's log all their time as SIC?

Yes for a domestic operation. Once you get into the 121 long-haul realm where you get in to the quagmire of augmented crews, and all the FOs are PIC typed, you get into a "cruise Captain" or IRO situation. One FO will be the "Captain" while the Captain is on a rest break, but the assigned Captain still remains ultimately responsible. Most people break that time out as IRO, Relief Pilot or Cruise Captain time.
 
I have a PIC Type on jet. However, I fly as SIC since I don't have enough Total Time and log majority SIC. We do alternate legs and due to insurance I can only fly (Manipulate controls on empty legs). On these I log PIC (Sole manipulator of controls) we operate charter under 135.
 
I do Part 91 as well as Part 135 charter. When I was first hired I was sent to school and recieved an SIC type rating. Of course I flew the airplane some, but I always logged SIC because I was not rated for the aircraft.
I then became PIC typed in the airplane and began logging the co-captain style. The aircraft requires two pilots and we both are PIC qualified therefore I am logging it as PIC time if I am flying and even if I not. (I have heard other opinions here, but that is what I did.)
Then I soon had enough hours to fly with co-pilots that are not PIC typed. In this case I definitely log all hours as PIC because I am the only one in the aircraft with a PIC type rating in the aircraft.

Hope that helps.
 
I do Part 91 as well as Part 135 charter. When I was first hired I was sent to school and recieved an SIC type rating. Of course I flew the airplane some, but I always logged SIC because I was not rated for the aircraft.
I then became PIC typed in the airplane and began logging the co-captain style. The aircraft requires two pilots and we both are PIC qualified therefore I am logging it as PIC time if I am flying and even if I not. (I have heard other opinions here, but that is what I did.)
Then I soon had enough hours to fly with co-pilots that are not PIC typed. In this case I definitely log all hours as PIC because I am the only one in the aircraft with a PIC type rating in the aircraft.

Hope that helps.

FAR Part 1
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

FAR 61.51
e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
 
The aircraft requires two pilots and we both are PIC qualified therefore I am logging it as PIC time if I am flying and even if I not. (I have heard other opinions here, but that is what I did.)

I hope you don't spill those beans during your next job interview. Guarantee you won't get a call back.
 
I hope you don't spill those beans during your next job interview. Guarantee you won't get a call back.

I doubt it. I know more than a few people who do that. In fact, almost every (every single) guy I know who does co-captain medevac work logs stuff that way, or just doesn't give a damn enough to log time at all.
 
I doubt it. I know more than a few people who do that. In fact, almost every (every single) guy I know who does co-captain medevac work logs stuff that way, or just doesn't give a damn enough to log time at all.

That's absolutely absurd. I can't believe you're attempting to justify his blatant disregard for the regulations just because "some other guys do it". WalterSobchak gave the exact FAR reference. Did you take the time to read it?

Let them keep on doing it, though. I really hope, for their sake, that it doesn't come back to bite them in the ass. I happen to know a guy whose resume is repeatedly brushed aside because of some "questionable" flight time in his log book. Word gets out in this small community, and its a sure fire way to get a black mark on their unofficial record. Let someone find out that they're logging phony PIC time. Then the person doing the hiring will start to wonder whether or not there is any other bologna in their log book. Chief pilots talk to each other. All it takes is one phone call that starts with "Hey! You won't believe this idiot I interviewed today..." and they can all but kiss their hopes of flying a big shiny jet goodbye.
 
That's absolutely absurd. I can't believe you're attempting to justify his blatant disregard for the regulations just because "some other guys do it". WalterSobchak gave the exact FAR reference. Did you take the time to read it?

Let them keep on doing it, though. I really hope, for their sake, that it doesn't come back to bite them in the ass. I happen to know a guy whose resume is repeatedly brushed aside because of some "questionable" flight time in his log book. Word gets out in this small community, and its a sure fire way to get a black mark on their unofficial record. Let someone find out that they're logging phony PIC time. Then the person doing the hiring will start to wonder whether or not there is any other bologna in their log book. Chief pilots talk to each other. All it takes is one phone call that starts with "Hey! You won't believe this idiot I interviewed today..." and they can all but kiss their hopes of flying a big shiny jet goodbye.

Hey, I read it, and no how it works, but I know plenty of people who do it, and they haven't had a problem getting jobs (outside issues of the economy). Is it right? No. Is it legal? No. Is it done all the time? Yes. Don't do it, but your career want be forever over if you do unless you get caught. In fact I know a bunch of guys who got PIC types in the 1900 so they could log PIC even though they were FOs. And they'd log every leg as PIC. When asked "did you sign for the airplane." They get evasive, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

I'm not justifying anything, wrong is wrong, but it's a lot more common than you'd think.
 
Alright, I guess it falls into these sections:

FAR Part 1
Pilot in command means the person who:
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

FAR 61.51
e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.


If my name is on the dispatch sheet as PIC, do you not think I should log PIC time even if the guy flying is also typed in the aircraft and completely legal to log PIC? Should he log SIC even when he is flying just because I am "designated" as PIC, after all he is the "sole manipulator of the controls" when he is flying.

Just curious TFaudree, how do you seperate your PIC and SIC time when you are flying with another typed pilot?
 
Hey, I read it, and no how it works, but I know plenty of people who do it, and they haven't had a problem getting jobs (outside issues of the economy). Is it right? No. Is it legal? No. Is it done all the time? Yes. Don't do it, but your career want be forever over if you do unless you get caught.
...or unless their disregard of some pretty simple rules extends to other parts of their flying with some of the unfortunate consequences that sometimes entails.
 
Just curious TFaudree, how do you seperate your PIC and SIC time when you are flying with another typed pilot?

If I'm tugging yoke, I log PIC. If he's tugging yoke, I log SIC. Pretty easy to figure out how it works since its written in black and white in the regs.
 
...or unless their disregard of some pretty simple rules extends to other parts of their flying with some of the unfortunate consequences that sometimes entails.


There's a big difference between "logging" and "let me just look a little bit lower, then maybe I got it."

That being said, we don't live in the idealized rule abiding jetcareers bubble a lot of us think we do. A lot of times the "but its against the rules, don't they know that?" kind of makes me laugh, because its almost an admission of ignorance, or at least a childlike misunderstanding of the way the world works a lot of the time. Hell, I know guys who were here before any real regulations with teeth. I also knew guys who got their start flying in the 70s, you know, when sex was safe and flying was dangerous. The world of aviation safety has come a long way from then, but there are still plenty of people out there doing whatever the hell they want.

If you notice, my post doesn't say "go ahead, log what you want," but "I doubt he'll/she'll have a hard time getting a job, there are a lot of people who do that, and a lot of companies." Then look at the response: "You're trying to justify a blatant disregard for the rules, look!" Which isn't true, but it got me thinking a little bit about something I've noticed on here.

Why do we follow rules?

1. Because we agree with them, or our integrity precludes us from doing it.
2. Fear of punishment.

Both of these are reasons, but only one of them is a good reason, and I don't think that the "ahhhhhh the feds will violate you, and you'll be in big trouble," should be the reason not to do something. This is just speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of guys out there whose only motivation not to bust mins is "but I'll get in trouble." That is a problem. We should be doing things because we fundamentally agree with the reasons behind them, not from fear of punishment, because fear of punishment only works there is a strong executor nearby that can catch you.

You take the kind of person who only does things out of fear of punishment up here where they can do almost anything they want and not get caught they'll go hog wild until they realize that the rules are very prudent, or they'll auger in. That finally brings up the question, why are these logging issues important other than being violated by the feds?

If you're logging PIC when you're not actually PIC you are building a log book based on false currency. Though you are flying the airplane, you may not have enough real decision making PIC skill to actually safely operate the next airplane you get into. For example, you leave your co-captain kingair job, and dash across the ramp to Steve's Execujet Service. Provided Steve doesn't care, when you jump into the Lear, that knowledge and decision making skill you should have been acruing at a slower rate might not be there when you need it. That's why you should only log the time when you are actually PIC, or when you are the SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS. Not because you can get in trouble. But maybe that you're short changing yourself.
 
If you're logging PIC when you're not actually PIC you are building a log book based on false currency. Though you are flying the airplane, you may not have enough real decision making PIC skill to actually safely operate the next airplane you get into. For example, you leave your co-captain kingair job, and dash across the ramp to Steve's Execujet Service. Provided Steve doesn't care, when you jump into the Lear, that knowledge and decision making skill you should have been acruing at a slower rate might not be there when you need it. That's why you should only log the time when you are actually PIC, or when you are the SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS. Not because you can get in trouble. But maybe that you're short changing yourself.

Is this what you meant to say? The sentences I've underlined sure seem to be be in conflict with each other. Just curious.
 
If I'm tugging yoke, I log PIC. If he's tugging yoke, I log SIC. Pretty easy to figure out how it works since its written in black and white in the regs.


And just to make sure... If you are Acting PIC of a flight requiring more than two pilots you can LOG PIC as well? Just making sure I read it correctly and am following.
 
There's a big difference between "logging" and "let me just look a little bit lower, then maybe I got it."
There might be and there might not. Yes we all violate rules that we think are inconsequential. For some it's no big deal; for others it's part of an overall behavior pattern of breaking rules and lying any time it's convenient for them and they think they can get away with it.
 
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