SIC Position
- Thread starter moxiepilot
- Start date
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I'm not, you can't chose to not use the AP if installed.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Yes you can. The OpSpec is relief, not a requirement. Meaning you don't have to have the SIC onboard but if the SIC is onboard they are a crew member.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
You sure you're not thinking of the (S)ingle pilot authorization on appropriate aircraft?
jergar999
Yoke Pumper!
Under 135 IFR passenger carrying operations require a flight crew of two pilots. A PIC can take advantage of the autopilot in lieu of SIC exemption, but so long as the SIC is appropriately qualified they are a crew member and they can log the flight time.
Part 91 (with the exception of Subpart K) does not require a Second in command unless the Part 23 or 25 type certification requires it.
Part 91 (with the exception of Subpart K) does not require a Second in command unless the Part 23 or 25 type certification requires it.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
JHugz, your interpretation might be reverse the spirit of the regs. The regs require a SIC in certain types of 135 operations, of which an Autopilot MAY take the place of an SIC, not the other way around.
Also, automation is frequently used in Standard Ops and thus hand flying is discouraged. However, hand flying is up to the PIC if the PIC deems it necessary for safety of flight or, in my company's case, "staying proficient". In contrast, you cannot leave a required SIC on the taxiway to "stay proficient". Follow?
Also, automation is frequently used in Standard Ops and thus hand flying is discouraged. However, hand flying is up to the PIC if the PIC deems it necessary for safety of flight or, in my company's case, "staying proficient". In contrast, you cannot leave a required SIC on the taxiway to "stay proficient". Follow?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
True for passenger operations unde IFR. See 135.101 and 105 and this 2009 Chief Counsel interpretation. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2009/Nichols.pdfas I recall under 135 (and it's been several years) you must have an auto pilot for single pilot operations...so if you have no autopilot, and are under 135 (of course you have to have a SIC135 qual) then I think you log it.
One of you smart guys want to correct me?
Note that's it's the operator who gets to make the election between autopilot use for the purposes of determining whether the SIC is required. Not the pilots.
Bumblebee
Commodore
I love it when the smart guys show up! Thanks Steve and Mid!
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
Although I can't wait for the responses after the "sober up" phase, my guess is the taste of alcohol will be gone before the taste of the shoe leather. moxiepilot help out jhugz and the rest of us here: Is your OP refering to Part 135 cargo pr Pax, Part 91 or Part 91K?
The answer varies greatly...
The answer varies greatly...
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Hijack: after noticing jhugz has lost the ability to use the internets I realize now how dull my life has become after giving up booze and tobacco. Three weeks and counting and I am now a boring, old man.
To the OP do what you want as long as it doesn't involve burning airplanes in the desert after cruising over the Rio Grande at 15ft., pays the rent and puts food on the table. More power to whatever you're doing. Work is work.
To the OP do what you want as long as it doesn't involve burning airplanes in the desert after cruising over the Rio Grande at 15ft., pays the rent and puts food on the table. More power to whatever you're doing. Work is work.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Not unless the FO is PIC qualified, which includes a 135 PIC checkride, possibly a type rating and an ATP. Oh, and a big one would be that the capt is ok with it. 2 people can't log PIC at the same time.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
I think and some one correct me if I am wrong. To act as an SIC in the US at least, you don't need an SIC "type". You just need to have a multi-inst-comm. Now that's part 91, in an airplane that requires two crew. The whole SIC "type" came about to meet ICAO standards, so in order to leave the country you do need the type.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
Depends on the aircraft; if a "type" is required to be a PIC, then a "type" would be required for SIC. However, it's a pretty easy process for a Part 91 and (k). It all boils down to the Regs stating "qualified".
To the OP: In 91 operations, the aircraft certification, operating equipment, AND the pilot qualifications are all factors in the SIC "logging" process. The airplane may or may not be single-pilot certified and you could still log SIC (or PIC) depending on the situation.
z987k
Well-Known Member
That's not true. At least domestically. You don't need an SIC type to fly anything in the states. That's just an ICAO thing. As a Commercial or ATP MEL holder you are qualified to be an sic on pretty much anything, you might need a SIC check ride, but no need for a type rating in any form.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
So, you agree with me? We're stating the same thing here! [please note: the " " around the word TYPE]
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Not really. Not sure what your calling a type. Over the last couple years since this ICAO SIC "type" stuff started there has been some confusion. Before the ICAO rules changed it was pretty simple. Lets take a Lear 45 for example. I, to act as PIC need a Type rating, that includes sim or airplane training and an FAA/Designee oral and practical check ride. Now since the 45 needs a min of two crew (no single pilot waivers available, always two) I need an SIC. All that is required is a Pvt./Comm-Multi-Inst. and what is known as SIC familiarization training. Basically a check out that requires some ground training, three takeoff/landings to a full stop and basic, abnormal, and emergency procedure items. That's the shortened version, for more it is in 61.55. I would then sign their logbook and off we go. Now this is all still how it is as long as the flight stays within the US. To go out side the US is where the whole "type" thing comes into play. You complete all of the steps above but the difference is you take an 8710 with the signature of the person who provided the training to the FSDO and get the SIC "type" added to your cert. You would then meet the ICAO requirements and legal to fly to places like Mexico and Canada. For the SIC "type" there is NOT an oral or practical. Except in places like airlines where they do that, but it's part of their in house training.
As an aside, don't confuse what's required of an SIC when it comes to insurance. They can require ten moon landings if they wanted. But, again to be a legal SIC in a plane that requires two people, and never leaves the US, all that is needed is a Pvt./Comm-Multi-Inst. You need the Comm. if you want to get paid. But it's not a "type" like when the FAA mentions Catagory, Class and Type.
z987k
Well-Known Member
No we don't. Like was just said above, no type rating is required. The only way you'd need an SIC check ride is for 135 and 121, but still no type is required. Unless your " means type rating in some other form of the word then everyone else in aviation uses. I don't know if you've ever seen what's on a SIC check ride, but at least for 135 it is hilarious.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
Neither one of you has stated anything different that what I've stated; I just not unsing the right word(s) or I'm not being clear.
If you're PIC flying a Type Certficated airplane that requires two pilots, whether that be for the type of operation, equipment available, or by certification alone, you are REQUIRED to have a SIC. Do we agree on this point? Under THIS situation, the SIC must be qualified to log time. Do we agree on this point?
If we agree on these two points, then we are ALL stating the same thing here. I used "type" because, as a trainer in the plane, when you complete either the entry in the log book of the SIC OR complete the 8710 (however you want to show that the training was successfully completed), you are designating that he/she meets all the requirements under 61.55 for a SIC ONLY TYPE RATING. We all know that this training is no where close to a full PIC Type rating, so I was using the "type" to differentiate between the two levels of training. I should have explained the Baby "type" versus the Type......
If you're PIC flying a Type Certficated airplane that requires two pilots, whether that be for the type of operation, equipment available, or by certification alone, you are REQUIRED to have a SIC. Do we agree on this point? Under THIS situation, the SIC must be qualified to log time. Do we agree on this point?
If we agree on these two points, then we are ALL stating the same thing here. I used "type" because, as a trainer in the plane, when you complete either the entry in the log book of the SIC OR complete the 8710 (however you want to show that the training was successfully completed), you are designating that he/she meets all the requirements under 61.55 for a SIC ONLY TYPE RATING. We all know that this training is no where close to a full PIC Type rating, so I was using the "type" to differentiate between the two levels of training. I should have explained the Baby "type" versus the Type......