SIC in C90

SteveC said:
Even the operators that have an exemption to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC are not REQUIRED to use the exemption. In other words, they are ALLOWED to use an autopilot in place of the SIC, but they do not have to do so. If they decide to put an SIC on board, he can log the time as a required crewmember (even if the autopilot is on!).
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I loves me some JC!
 
Maurus said:
There is good reason for that. He is skipping part of the FARs.



Logging only Total Time is just as good as me logging time sitting in the back of a 737. Both instances I am a pilot in an airplane but am not required to be there. Just because your seat happens to have a yoke doesn't mean you can log the time.
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The FARs in this case state 2 things. They state what you MUST log and what you MAY log (for the purposes of 61.51 only). HOWEVER, the "musts" and "mays" are not all inclusive. 61.51 repeatedly uses the word "must" but it is not used in reference to recency, for example. You "must" also have an acceptable amount of recency logged to be a PIC with passengers, but that is not referred to, here because 61.51 is intended to be referred to when judging logbook entries for aeronautical experience in certification. Also, it never states when you "may" log "Total Time". I can't find any reference of "may not" in the FARs for logging total time. I think this is purposeful in the spirit of the FARs because aviation is ever changing. You can certainly log anything you want as you see it as long as you are properly rated. It can be argued that right seat time in a C90 under Part 91 is not good for total time simply because you are not a required crewmember, but if you have a company that values that time, what is stopping you from logging a column with right seat C90 and total? The FAA certainly isn't. They do not care. They only care about what is required to obtain, maintain, and exercise the privledges of the certificate you hold in a safe manner. Some hiring officials do care, though and that is where the stigma behind this comes from. Some people maintain that because you are not "required" that none of it counts. They are certainly entitled to their opinions for the purpose of hiring you. This is why I have a log of B200 right seat time, but it is separate from all of my other time. The FARs don't say I can't keep a record of this. I mean, 1 pound separates the requirement for a right seater and the certification of that airplane. How do you quantify the difference?!?! You don't. You log it but you just use it as what it is. Is is worth anything? Only to those who want it, but there is certainly nothing that says you can't log it. The FARs are specific, but at the same time only inclusive to the FAA's needs.

I'd like to add that if the FARs were regarded as all inclusive, not one Space Shuttle Commander would be able to log any of their time in the Orbiter as it is not specifically regarded as permissible flight time under certification nor recency. For carrying passengers, however, they'd have to have at least 3 "takeoffs" and landings within the previous 90 days...if the Orbiter was even certified by the FAA as an aeronautical aircraft.
 
falconvalley said:
The FARs in this case state 2 things. They state what you MUST log and what you MAY log (for the purposes of 61.51 only). HOWEVER, the "musts" and "mays" are not all inclusive. 61.51 repeatedly uses the word "must" but it is not used in reference to recency, for example. You "must" also have an acceptable amount of recency logged to be a PIC with passengers, but that is not referred to, here because 61.51 is intended to be referred to when judging logbook entries for aeronautical experience in certification. Also, it never states when you "may" log "Total Time". I can't find any reference of "may not" in the FARs for logging total time. I think this is purposeful in the spirit of the FARs because aviation is ever changing. You can certainly log anything you want as you see it as long as you are properly rated. It can be argued that right seat time in a C90 under Part 91 is not good for total time simply because you are not a required crewmember, but if you have a company that values that time, what is stopping you from logging a column with right seat C90 and total? The FAA certainly isn't. They do not care. They only care about what is required to obtain, maintain, and exercise the privledges of the certificate you hold in a safe manner. Some hiring officials do care, though and that is where the stigma behind this comes from. Some people maintain that because you are not "required" that none of it counts. They are certainly entitled to their opinions for the purpose of hiring you. This is why I have a log of B200 right seat time, but it is separate from all of my other time. The FARs don't say I can't keep a record of this. I mean, 1 pound separates the requirement for a right seater and the certification of that airplane. How do you quantify the difference?!?! You don't. You log it but you just use it as what it is. Is is worth anything? Only to those who want it, but there is certainly nothing that says you can't log it. The FARs are specific, but at the same time only inclusive to the FAA's needs.

I'd like to add that if the FARs were regarded as all inclusive, not one Space Shuttle Commander would be able to log any of their time in the Orbiter as it is not specifically regarded as permissible flight time under certification nor recency. For carrying passengers, however, they'd have to have at least 3 "takeoffs" and landings within the previous 90 days...if the Orbiter was even certified by the FAA as an aeronautical aircraft.
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I understand what you are saying. I too keep a separate log for when I right seat in the CJs, but I still don't see why you would log total time without specifying what type of piloting time that would be. You either were logging PIC/SIC or you won't. Notice I did not say acting as PIC. That is a completely different topic from logging time as PIC.
 
falconvalley said:
The FARs in this case state 2 things. They state what you MUST log and what you MAY log (for the purposes of 61.51 only). HOWEVER, the "musts" and "mays" are not all inclusive. 61.51 repeatedly uses the word "must" but it is not used in reference to recency, for example. You "must" also have an acceptable amount of recency logged to be a PIC with passengers, but that is not referred to, here because 61.51 is intended to be referred to when judging logbook entries for aeronautical experience in certification. Also, it never states when you "may" log "Total Time". I can't find any reference of "may not" in the FARs for logging total time. I think this is purposeful in the spirit of the FARs because aviation is ever changing. You can certainly log anything you want as you see it as long as you are properly rated. It can be argued that right seat time in a C90 under Part 91 is not good for total time simply because you are not a required crewmember, but if you have a company that values that time, what is stopping you from logging a column with right seat C90 and total? The FAA certainly isn't. They do not care. They only care about what is required to obtain, maintain, and exercise the privledges of the certificate you hold in a safe manner. Some hiring officials do care, though and that is where the stigma behind this comes from. Some people maintain that because you are not "required" that none of it counts. They are certainly entitled to their opinions for the purpose of hiring you. This is why I have a log of B200 right seat time, but it is separate from all of my other time. The FARs don't say I can't keep a record of this. I mean, 1 pound separates the requirement for a right seater and the certification of that airplane. How do you quantify the difference?!?! You don't. You log it but you just use it as what it is. Is is worth anything? Only to those who want it, but there is certainly nothing that says you can't log it. The FARs are specific, but at the same time only inclusive to the FAA's needs.

I'd like to add that if the FARs were regarded as all inclusive, not one Space Shuttle Commander would be able to log any of their time in the Orbiter as it is not specifically regarded as permissible flight time under certification nor recency. For carrying passengers, however, they'd have to have at least 3 "takeoffs" and landings within the previous 90 days...if the Orbiter was even certified by the FAA as an aeronautical aircraft.
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The original post said to "just log it as total time". Not "keep a log for insurance or company specific stuff." Giving a blank statement with no actual context on why someone would do that is ridiculous and misleading. People do use the "I log only flight time" excuse to meet Part 135 mins and ATP mins. I have seen them get away with it.

I dare you to find where the FARs mention "Total Time" :D
 
The only way you can log it is if the FAA, Ops Specs, or Insurance Company dictates and SIC is reguired for the operation.

Without that the time is almost useless.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
The only way you can log it is if the FAA, Ops Specs, or Insurance Company dictates and SIC is reguired for the operation.

Without that the time is almost useless.
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I'm not even sure "insurance company" is a legal reason to log the time as SIC.
 
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