SIC Experience/Type Rating with Part 135 Operators

[Justin Rogers]

First off, no company Op Spec supercedes the FAR. It is the FAR that gives the company the option to either have a FO on board the aircraft or if the aircraft meets the Autopilot reg, that can be substituted in place of the FO, and yes the operator has to state in it's Op Spec that it is utilizing the Autopilot in place of the FO.

But it is not the Op Spec that over rides the FAR.

As for loging SIC time in a Single pilot Certified A/C, the FAR states that if a pilot is serving as a crew member in an A/C requiring two pilots, or the operation in which that A/C is being operated under requires two pilots, then all time in which that pilot is occupying a crew member station is loggable as SIC time. So long as the pilot logging the time holds the appropriate certificate to serve in that position.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

The company Ops Spec or FAR can superceede a FAR if it is more restrictive that the FAR. Many union contracts place restrictions on crews that supercede the FAR and prohibit the company from operating to FAA limits.

 

[Justin Rogers]

This is the only time in which I can find a Op Spec can superceede a FAR.

But in the issue being looked at, there are only two options for a 135 operator to take. Either they equipe the A/C with an Autopilot and place in the Op Spec that they are using the AP in place of the SIC req. Or they are required to have a SIC on board in the right seat. Even if the A/C is equiped with an AP the company can still choose to have an SIC on board. This is only for PAX 135 operations. Freight 135 Operations do not require a SIC even in IFR conditions, unless the Aircraft requires an SIC per it's type certificate.

I'm not trying to make a dispute out of this, I am simply trying to answer the original question that was replied to in a manner stating that a pilot can't logg SIC time in a Single pilot Certified A/C, which is not true if the company is a 135 PAX operator, and chooses to use SICs' in place of using the Auto pilot. The FAR clearly states that an SIC is required for all 135 PAX operations under IFR conditions unless there is a certified Autopilot being used in place of this rule. See FAR 135.101 and 135.105, you will see that though the company Op Spec sates it will use the AP in place of an SIC, the decision is still up to the Administration.

 

[CFIT99]

Several freight operators have the exemption to allow the logging of SIC in a single pilot aircraft.

Martinaire has a few Metro Pilots that are required to have an FO with them, of course these FO's are given an SIC type, not sure where it is in the OpSpecs, none of our Metro's or 1900's have autopilots (i dont think)

 

[Maurus]

IF anyone was to look at the part135 operation in the FAR, it's clearly listed that all 135 operations in IFR conditions require a SIC regardless of the aircraft type certificate. The exemption to this rule is if the aircraft is equipped with a certified Autopilot system which may be utilized in lue of the SIC, should the operator of the aircraft prefer.

§ 135.101 Second in command required under IFR.

Except as provided in §135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

We are talking cargo. Only need one pilot for single pilot aircraft when 135 cargo.

OpSpecs can supersede the FARs when specific exemptions and authorizations are given to an operator. These can be seen in Opspec A005 for a specific company. An opspec also supersedes a FAR when it is more restrictive.

Martinaire has a few Metro Pilots that are required to have an FO with them, of course these FO's are given an SIC type, not sure where it is in the OpSpecs, none of our Metro's or 1900's have autopilots (i dont think)

SICs are only needed per the FARs if the aircraft is being operated with passengers. I would think this is an insurance thing for Martinaire as 1900s and SA-227s are single pilot certified.

 

[Justin Rogers]

This is the only time in which I can find a Op Spec can superceede a FAR.

But in the issue being looked at, there are only two options for a 135 operator to take. Either they equipe the A/C with an Autopilot and place in the Op Spec that they are using the AP in place of the SIC req. Or they are required to have a SIC on board in the right seat. Even if the A/C is equiped with an AP the company can still choose to have an SIC on board. This is only for PAX 135 operations. Freight 135 Operations do not require a SIC even in IFR conditions, unless the Aircraft requires an SIC per it's type certificate.

I'm not trying to make a dispute out of this, I am simply trying to answer the original question that was replied to in a manner stating that a pilot can't logg SIC time in a Single pilot Certified A/C, which is not true if the company is a 135 PAX operator, and chooses to use SICs' in place of using the Auto pilot. The FAR clearly states that an SIC is required for all 135 PAX operations under IFR conditions unless there is a certified Autopilot being used in place of this rule. See FAR 135.101 and 135.105, you will see that though the company Op Spec sates it will use the AP in place of an SIC, the decision is still up to the Administration.

I'm pretty sure I stated that this rule only applies to 135 PAX operations.

 

[Maurus]

The confusion comes from your first post that says "ALL part 135". Not to mention being in a cargo forum you can make the fair assumption that we are talking cargo part 135 regs and not pax related regs.

 

[G-IV]

FWIW - An SIC Type rating has zero value. The entire concept is nothing more than a paperwork exercise the FAA embarked upon about 5 years ago in order to get more in line with ICAO rules. If you complete basic 135 SIC initial training you are eligible for an SIC type. Don't let the word "Type" fool you into thinking it has some value.

 

[SIUav8er]

You are paying to be self loading cargo on a single pilot plane. You cannot legally log SIC unless they have had the ops specs ammended to require an SIC for that aircraft. Loggin SIC in a single pilot plane will raise questions to say the least about your times...

If people don't want to listen to us with industry go a head and shoot yourself in the foot with an expensive bullet...

exactly. this is the unfortunate side of the story these PFT guys dont get. For example, at my company, the only time an SIC is required is when we take off below 1800 RVR or conduct class II navigation without an autopilot. Of course I would be willing to bet ALL the PFT co-pilots are logging SIC for all their flying regardless.

Be carefull putting junk time in your logbook. A future employer might take a look at it and say the time is invalid or not even give you an interview.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

This is the only time in which I can find a Op Spec can superceede a FAR.

But in the issue being looked at, there are only two options for a 135 operator to take. Either they equipe the A/C with an Autopilot and place in the Op Spec that they are using the AP in place of the SIC req. Or they are required to have a SIC on board in the right seat. Even if the A/C is equiped with an AP the company can still choose to have an SIC on board. This is only for PAX 135 operations. Freight 135 Operations do not require a SIC even in IFR conditions, unless the Aircraft requires an SIC per it's type certificate.

I'm not trying to make a dispute out of this, I am simply trying to answer the original question that was replied to in a manner stating that a pilot can't logg SIC time in a Single pilot Certified A/C, which is not true if the company is a 135 PAX operator, and chooses to use SICs' in place of using the Auto pilot. The FAR clearly states that an SIC is required for all 135 PAX operations under IFR conditions unless there is a certified Autopilot being used in place of this rule. See FAR 135.101 and 135.105, you will see that though the company Op Spec sates it will use the AP in place of an SIC, the decision is still up to the Administration.

There are quite a few more. You just don't have enough experience navigating the labyrinth of opspecs paragraphs and company specific GOM language. It is not the autopilot reg that these part 135 companies use in order to "require" a second pilot and therefore allow logging of SIC time in single pilot aircraft. This is an assumption on your part, and you're just making an ass out of yourself as the expression goes... no offense meant.

Just one example, Ameriflight has reduced visibility take offs where in you can take off with a lower RVR if you have a second pilot.

Personally, as long as they are only "pseudo-required" crewmembers and don't take someone's job I could care less... I would advise though that since the PIC is not required to let you touch the controls for even one second that the "cheapness" of the multi-time is balanced by the fact that if you rent a plane you are absolutely guaranteed to fly it. Also, the idea that someone would pay money to temporarily live the life of a bank check or UPS feeder pilot seems preposterous in the extreme. Tell me where your PFT SICs fly out of and I'll drive up there and give them a good deal, $5 for a kick in the balls.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

exactly. this is the unfortunate side of the story these PFT guys dont get. For example, at my company, the only time an SIC is required is when we take off below 1800 RVR or conduct class II navigation without an autopilot. Of course I would be willing to bet ALL the PFT co-pilots are logging SIC for all their flying regardless.

A nit pick but the way I read things is that a second pilot is required in order to qualify for the lower take off minima, not to take off. In that they could be there regardless of what the actual weather is and you would still qualify for the reduced RVR take off minima even if you didn't have to use it.

I mean, otherwise it could be argued that their necessity ends at the after takeoff check and that they should only be able to log the time until the wheels come up on take off, even if the weather was poor enough that you required them in truth.