Should Airline subsidies end?

But where do we draw the line subsidizing airfare for those who choose to live away from populated areas? Isn't it really a supply and demand issue?

Drawing the line is probably the easiest part. You could define a set of stricter criteria to weed out communities that really don't need EAS.

It isn't quite a supply and demand issue, it's more of a scale issue. There is demand in Liberal KS, but there is no way to create a scaled-down, profitable supply option to serve the demand. But that's always the way it is with small towns. There's probably not enough demand in Liberal KS to cover the cost of electrical transmission lines or mail service. Does that mean we let the town lose its electricity and mail? If it were all about supply and demand, then most rural small towns everywhere would get hosed. On everything. I'm not in favor of EAS for every small town and maybe it should be cut back a lot, but I don't think it should be dropped.
 
Seems to me the question is "Would anybody notice if EAS were cut?"

The people who work for the companies that depend on it certainly would... the people writing the checks for it wouldn't.
 
Still not my problem that someone chooses to live in the middle of nowhere. They chose to live there, no one forced them. But I am being forced to pay for it because of their choice to live there.

It's kinda hard to grow corn in downtown LA.
 
I think there is a more efficient way than flying empty 1900's. (I seen them completely empty doing a touch and go just so they can collect their money)

They can subsidize the local charter companies so that the local community can make the profit which in turn goes back into the local community. Also a Cessna 414 is way cheaper to operate than a Beech 1900 when you have 3 passengers.

Also the state or local community should subsidize it. The feds are broke enough as it is.
 
They can subsidize the local charter companies so that the local community can make the profit which in turn goes back into the local community.

Good idea. Turn a local charter into a scheduled carrier. Cape Air Kansas. At least the flights would be more right-sized and less wasteful. And if people don't want to fly in a 414, then I'd agree that they probably don't need air service that badly.
 
Sould EAS be cancled? No Should EAS be reviewed and trimmed? Yes

In some rural areas (Liberal KS) the nearest sustainable airline service is over 3 hours away. There simply isn't another option for peopel to travel in and out of the western half of Kansas. Businesses will not stay if they do not have some sort of airline service, and thousands will lose theri jobs, creating less taxes.

In some areas (Beaumont TX), there is another airport with much more traffic not too far away (IAH, 90 minutes). 95% of passengers drive to Houston to catch their flight anyway (It's about as fast once you factor conection times). They really don't need it.

Agree.

Lots and lots of stuff in the airline business is subsidized. Hell, that Pittsburgh to Paris flight I did last month was subsidized, but according to what I've heard, Pittsburgh's travel industry revenue has repaid the local area tenfold what they paid to subsidize the flights.

Those passengers arrive from CDG, stay in hotels, do business, connect on some of y'alls barbie jets to parts unknown, eat food, flush the toilet, do the "Superman" and sing "Black 'n Yellow" with 40 ounce I.C. Lights...

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to think that many MANY other businesses don't benefit from some of the holdover benefits from the CAB.

I kind of see parts of the EAS being like the interstate highway system. >>>>>I<<<<< don't drive between San Diego and Phoenix so what are >>>>>my<<<<<< tax dollars going to maintain it?

Well, that road drives tourism, provides a quick route for commerce to/from California and is strategically necessary for defense.

When the aliens attack Los Angeles tomorrow, how are we going to move reinforcements from AZ to California? I-10, I-8 and I-40. But if some dude in Kansas doesn't think his federal dollars should go toward the national highway system because he lives on a dirt road, he might want to grab a private army and invade some lightly-defended Central American country and start his own! :)

Wait, the aliens were supposed to attack the 12th, but today is the 12th. Nevermind! Battle Los Angeles rocked!
 
Good idea. Turn a local charter into a scheduled carrier. Cape Air Kansas. At least the flights would be more right-sized and less wasteful. And if people don't want to fly in a 414, then I'd agree that they probably don't need air service that badly.

I like the idea a bit to. No need to even make it scheduled. Just have a subsidized local charter to the nearest major hub. DEN, OKC and maybe AMA.

OTOH, this is ant's piss amount of money compared to what we really spend a lot of money on. Defense.
 
OTOH, this is ant's piss amount of money compared to what we really spend a lot of money on. Defense.

Exactly. Compared to the ridiculous amount of government spending in other areas, EAS is like a flea on an Elephant's ass in comparison.
 
It's kinda hard to grow corn in downtown LA.

Right. But it's not hard to grow corn in the central valley. Lot's of it's grown there, along with many other crops. And Fresno is just one city that has a decent amount of airline service. A few carriers serv it. Bakersfield is also a city that has airline service. And, it's only a two and a half hour drive between the two. Thats from one to the other, not from the middle of the two. Neither of those two cities accept EAS money. I know this because I drove from Southern California (VNY) to Modesto(MOD) in 5 hours. People have accepted the fact that they live in California's Central Valley, and getting airline service isn't going to be easy. It's going to be difficult, but not impossible.

Now we look at Merced, about 45 minutes north of Fresno. They get EAS money. ARE YOU KIDDING ME! Who paid off the government on this one? You mean to tell me you can't make a 45 miute drive to the freakin airport? Kansas isn't that bik. It's approximatly 400 miles across at it's widest point. At an average speed of 70mph, thats only 5 hours to get from one side to the other. But most people won't drive clear from one side to the other to get to the airport. Most will drive a mzximum of 2, maybe three.

The simple reality is that people have become lazy, and expect to much for to little in return. What happened in the days of not everyone can travel by air. This is all from the attitude of entitlement. You are not entitled to travel by air on the back of everyone else. What you are entitled to is to get your but in the car, and drive to the airport on roads funded by the government. Shall the government start paying for some of my fuel to get back and forth to work, because I decided to live out in the sticks, 2 hours from the nearest city? How is that any different that what EAS is?
 
Agree.

Lots and lots of stuff in the airline business is subsidized. Hell, that Pittsburgh to Paris flight I did last month was subsidized, but according to what I've heard, Pittsburgh's travel industry revenue has repaid the local area tenfold what they paid to subsidize the flights.

Those passengers arrive from CDG, stay in hotels, do business, connect on some of y'alls barbie jets to parts unknown, eat food, flush the toilet, do the "Superman" and sing "Black 'n Yellow" with 40 ounce I.C. Lights...

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to think that many MANY other businesses don't benefit from some of the holdover benefits from the CAB.

I kind of see parts of the EAS being like the interstate highway system. >>>>>I<<<<< don't drive between San Diego and Phoenix so what are >>>>>my<<<<<< tax dollars going to maintain it?

Well, that road drives tourism, provides a quick route for commerce to/from California and is strategically necessary for defense.

When the aliens attack Los Angeles tomorrow, how are we going to move reinforcements from AZ to California? I-10, I-8 and I-40. But if some dude in Kansas doesn't think his federal dollars should go toward the national highway system because he lives on a dirt road, he might want to grab a private army and invade some lightly-defended Central American country and start his own! :)

Wait, the aliens were supposed to attack the 12th, but today is the 12th. Nevermind! Battle Los Angeles rocked!


The difference there is states get the money and allocate it how they see fit. Totally different arangement. But, while your at it, use I-10 to get to SkyHarbor. Your elected officals decided to spen that money that way to make sure you could get there. But the feds are making me pay for some D-bag who lives in Prescott, AZ to Phoenix, AZ, and hour and a half drive at a resonable pace, or just under two hours, from city center to city center, when it would take almost three hours to do it on an airplane, security and such figured in for travel time. Or taking USMC's argument. Salinas is an EAS airport, that is subsidized to get to KC, MO. But Mid Continent is only an hour and a half drive south......... 95 freakin miles!
 
Right. But it's not hard to grow corn in the central valley. Lot's of it's grown there, along with many other crops. And Fresno is just one city that has a decent amount of airline service. A few carriers serv it. Bakersfield is also a city that has airline service. And, it's only a two and a half hour drive between the two. Thats from one to the other, not from the middle of the two. Neither of those two cities accept EAS money. I know this because I drove from Southern California (VNY) to Modesto(MOD) in 5 hours. People have accepted the fact that they live in California's Central Valley, and getting airline service isn't going to be easy. It's going to be difficult, but not impossible.

Now we look at Merced, about 45 minutes north of Fresno. They get EAS money. ARE YOU KIDDING ME! Who paid off the government on this one? You mean to tell me you can't make a 45 miute drive to the freakin airport? Kansas isn't that bik. It's approximatly 400 miles across at it's widest point. At an average speed of 70mph, thats only 5 hours to get from one side to the other. But most people won't drive clear from one side to the other to get to the airport. Most will drive a mzximum of 2, maybe three.
I spent about 5 hours flying over the Central Valley yesterday. There is NOTHING there but farm fields.
 
I agree that EAS should remain in place, but I disagree with this reasoning. If businesses relocate because EAS is terminated, they'll recreate those jobs elsewhere, so the net job loss to the nation would be pretty minimal. The job losses in those specific towns would be huge, but as Tea Partiers and financial conservatives love to point out, that's the free market speaking. If no carrier can profitably serve Liberal, KS, then Liberal doesn't get airline service and the town dies off. Free market in action.

The EAS subsidy should remain in place for the same reason we subsidize many other "unprofitable" things, like farmers, non-pharmaceutical scientific research, and health care for the elderly: because they have value beyond monetary ROI. Believe it or not, small towns in Kansas have value to me, an urban Seattle resident, beyond how much revenue they generate. I don't mind paying taxes so that their inhabitants don't need to drive 3 hours to get to an airport.

That and as someone who lives in a "populated area", I would actually pay money to get people to leave so I don't have to deal with craptastic traffic on my drive to work.
 
But where do we draw the line subsidizing airfare for those who choose to live away from populated areas? Isn't it really a supply and demand issue? The airlines will determine what they need to charge to fly into Liberal, KS and set fares accordingly. If the locals are unwilling to pay that, the airline will simply withdraw from the market. If people / business' chooses to reside in Liberal or other small cities with similar logistical issues, they do so knowing that they will have transportation challenges. If the city chooses to subsidize the airline in some fashion for the sake of local business then so be it, but let it be a local issue and not added to my federal tax bill. I think this country is suffering the effects of trying to provide too much to too many.

We draw the line at airports where people enjoyed air service prior to deregulation.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
 
Right. But it's not hard to grow corn in the central valley. Lot's of it's grown there, along with many other crops. And Fresno is just one city that has a decent amount of airline service. A few carriers serv it. Bakersfield is also a city that has airline service. And, it's only a two and a half hour drive between the two. Thats from one to the other, not from the middle of the two. Neither of those two cities accept EAS money. I know this because I drove from Southern California (VNY) to Modesto(MOD) in 5 hours. People have accepted the fact that they live in California's Central Valley, and getting airline service isn't going to be easy. It's going to be difficult, but not impossible.

Now we look at Merced, about 45 minutes north of Fresno. They get EAS money. ARE YOU KIDDING ME! Who paid off the government on this one? You mean to tell me you can't make a 45 miute drive to the freakin airport? Kansas isn't that bik. It's approximatly 400 miles across at it's widest point. At an average speed of 70mph, thats only 5 hours to get from one side to the other. But most people won't drive clear from one side to the other to get to the airport. Most will drive a mzximum of 2, maybe three.

The simple reality is that people have become lazy, and expect to much for to little in return. What happened in the days of not everyone can travel by air. This is all from the attitude of entitlement. You are not entitled to travel by air on the back of everyone else. What you are entitled to is to get your but in the car, and drive to the airport on roads funded by the government. Shall the government start paying for some of my fuel to get back and forth to work, because I decided to live out in the sticks, 2 hours from the nearest city? How is that any different that what EAS is?

Oh we're talking Valley, alright!

70 MPH as an "average" annual speed is a little auspicious. I'll bet you the average speed is much lower because of the seasonal fog and traffic congestion.

I think it all boils down to the country we want to live in. We can pick all of the low-hanging fruit like EAS and be conditioned to "overlook" the cable-news politicos that qualify for $150K-plus pensions for life that serve as little as two years, or we can categorically dismantle our nation.

America costs money. If everyone lived in the city, we would have no one out in the sticks growing food or, like Wisconsin, playing the role of "population engine". We need to figure out where the baseline acceptable level of lifestyle we want to live is. Is it a Ayn Rand-ian survival of the fittest, which is in full play in parts of East Africa, or is a balance like Canada and parts of Western Europe. Before you say "Europe? Look what's going on in Greece!" I'll pre-answer, "America? Look how well Canada is doing through the "global" crisis, which isn't necessarily global - just that it makes us feel better when we think it is".

If we dismantle our infrastructure, divest out of rail, cut off the small towns, privatize everything except the military (for the most part, but I'm not sure where the billions to Blackwater went), that America isn't going to be America. It's going to be some random Central America regime.

Me? I want the America that my parents enjoyed. Prosperity. Hope. Passion. Innovation. Being the best of the best and kicking ass. ANYONE can succeed if they want it bad enough, not only just the well-coifed "born into it" wealthy like Donald Trump. The America where positive, constructive ideals prevailed, not just some "OMG! This side BLASTS that side" newsiness quips on a "readers comments" section of an online newspaper where we did was was best for our nation, rather than sign bull-crap "let's repeal the Scopes Monkey Trial" and agree that "Brown vs. Board of Education" was Communist Bias derp derp DEERRRRRRP drivel.

Ideologues are pressing for America to become a lawless, lassaiz-faire Somalia. Me? I just want to opportunity that my parents had and the bastards in DC and the boneheads on cable news are doing nothing but selling advertising space at the expense of America. The REAL America, not some unproven textbook version of what some Eastern-Bloc foreigner thinks it should be.

I still remember when I got sick, I went to the doctor because my parents were both in a union with good health care. It wasn't a matter if there was enough money saved in the HSA, or if the HRA covered the doctor or even if he was part of our HMO. I went to the doctor to get well. I had a nasty-assed car accident when I was a child and I was taken care of between our doctors and the insurance company and doctors. Holy crap man, if I get sick today, even making nearly in the mid $100's/year, it's a potentially bankrupt-able visit.

Oh hell, now I'm on a roll. Or the Medicare insurance than I put money into when I was a CFI and ineligible for, is targeted to be cut by some DC windbag that wants to cut my mother's health coverage so he can protect his $170K/year pension that he's eligible for, for life, after as little as two years of elected "volunteer" service in Congress?

We've being duped. Hopefully we will wake up before we do something really stupid and devolve into "Mogadishu with really REALLY good hamburgers"
 
Right. But it's not hard to grow corn in the central valley. Lot's of it's grown there, along with many other crops. And Fresno is just one city that has a decent amount of airline service. A few carriers serv it. Bakersfield is also a city that has airline service. And, it's only a two and a half hour drive between the two. Thats from one to the other, not from the middle of the two. Neither of those two cities accept EAS money. I know this because I drove from Southern California (VNY) to Modesto(MOD) in 5 hours. People have accepted the fact that they live in California's Central Valley, and getting airline service isn't going to be easy. It's going to be difficult, but not impossible.

Now we look at Merced, about 45 minutes north of Fresno. They get EAS money. ARE YOU KIDDING ME! Who paid off the government on this one? You mean to tell me you can't make a 45 miute drive to the freakin airport? Kansas isn't that bik. It's approximatly 400 miles across at it's widest point. At an average speed of 70mph, thats only 5 hours to get from one side to the other. But most people won't drive clear from one side to the other to get to the airport. Most will drive a mzximum of 2, maybe three.

The simple reality is that people have become lazy, and expect to much for to little in return. What happened in the days of not everyone can travel by air. This is all from the attitude of entitlement. You are not entitled to travel by air on the back of everyone else. What you are entitled to is to get your but in the car, and drive to the airport on roads funded by the government. Shall the government start paying for some of my fuel to get back and forth to work, because I decided to live out in the sticks, 2 hours from the nearest city? How is that any different that what EAS is?


Speaking of the central valley, we should probably stop subsidizing the water projects that even make it possible to grow anything there. The over water usage is raping the surrounding areas. Since we're cutting subsidies and all...then there would be no farmers in the central valley, and people would have to grow crops where they can actually be sustained by the environment.... which is BFE america.
 
Oh we're talking Valley, alright!

70 MPH as an "average" annual speed is a little auspicious. I'll bet you the average speed is much lower because of the seasonal fog and traffic congestion.

I think it all boils down to the country we want to live in. We can pick all of the low-hanging fruit like EAS and be conditioned to "overlook" the cable-news politicos that qualify for $150K-plus pensions for life that serve as little as two years, or we can categorically dismantle our nation.

America costs money. If everyone lived in the city, we would have no one out in the sticks growing food or, like Wisconsin, playing the role of "population engine". We need to figure out where the baseline acceptable level of lifestyle we want to live is. Is it a Ayn Rand-ian survival of the fittest, which is in full play in parts of East Africa, or is a balance like Canada and parts of Western Europe. Before you say "Europe? Look what's going on in Greece!" I'll pre-answer, "America? Look how well Canada is doing through the "global" crisis, which isn't necessarily global - just that it makes us feel better when we think it is".

If we dismantle our infrastructure, divest out of rail, cut off the small towns, privatize everything except the military (for the most part, but I'm not sure where the billions to Blackwater went), that America isn't going to be America. It's going to be some random Central America regime.

Me? I want the America that my parents enjoyed. Prosperity. Hope. Passion. Innovation. Being the best of the best and kicking ass. ANYONE can succeed if they want it bad enough, not only just the well-coifed "born into it" wealthy like Donald Trump. The America where positive, constructive ideals prevailed, not just some "OMG! This side BLASTS that side" newsiness quips on a "readers comments" section of an online newspaper where we did was was best for our nation, rather than sign bull-crap "let's repeal the Scopes Monkey Trial" and agree that "Brown vs. Board of Education" was Communist Bias derp derp DEERRRRRRP drivel.

Ideologues are pressing for America to become a lawless, lassaiz-faire Somalia. Me? I just want to opportunity that my parents had and the bastards in DC and the boneheads on cable news are doing nothing but selling advertising space at the expense of America. The REAL America, not some unproven textbook version of what some Eastern-Bloc foreigner thinks it should be.

I still remember when I got sick, I went to the doctor because my parents were both in a union with good health care. It wasn't a matter if there was enough money saved in the HSA, or if the HRA covered the doctor or even if he was part of our HMO. I went to the doctor to get well. I had a nasty-assed car accident when I was a child and I was taken care of between our doctors and the insurance company and doctors. Holy crap man, if I get sick today, even making nearly in the mid $100's/year, it's a potentially bankrupt-able visit.

Oh hell, now I'm on a roll. Or the Medicare insurance than I put money into when I was a CFI and ineligible for, is targeted to be cut by some DC windbag that wants to cut my mother's health coverage so he can protect his $170K/year pension that he's eligible for, for life, after as little as two years of elected "volunteer" service in Congress?

We've being duped. Hopefully we will wake up before we do something really stupid and devolve into "Mogadishu with really REALLY good hamburgers"

ALRIGHT DOUG!!!! :rawk:
 
Having flown EAS for a few months, it comes down to laziness too. America is flat-out lazy. We would fly between dump towns 2 hours drive from St. Louis 6 times a day. When any of us wanted to go somewhere, we DROVE to St. Louis because the loads were so bad. I've been on the road at 3am to catch a 6am flight out of the Lou. Sure it hurts, but when you're getting to where you want to go, it's not THAT bad. Throw a little music on, make some phone calls, talk to the other guy you're driving with and before you know it, you're there!

Then again, you should see the SIZE of the people we flew out there. 75% should have been WALKING to St. Louis...
 
Having flown EAS for a few months, it comes down to laziness too. America is flat-out lazy. We would fly between dump towns 2 hours drive from St. Louis 6 times a day. When any of us wanted to go somewhere, we DROVE to St. Louis because the loads were so bad. I've been on the road at 3am to catch a 6am flight out of the Lou. Sure it hurts, but when you're getting to where you want to go, it's not THAT bad. Throw a little music on, make some phone calls, talk to the other guy you're driving with and before you know it, you're there!

Then again, you should see the SIZE of the people we flew out there. 75% should have been WALKING to St. Louis...

Sounds like LNS! You could either drive 45 minutes to MDT and go to ORD, ATL, EWR, LGA, DTW, etc. non-stop, or you could take Cape Air and go to BWI...where you'd have to connect just to get to any of those places. Might as well cut out the middle-man.
 
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